Warning: This site contains images and graphic descriptions of extreme violence and/or its effects. It's not as bad as it could be, but is meant to be shocking. Readers should be 18+ or a mature 17 or so. There is also some foul language occasionally, and potential for general upsetting of comforting conventional wisdom. Please view with discretion.

Saturday, December 3, 2011

Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir and the LLHR

October 18, 2011

I had previous aired questions about one particular incident of rebel brutality blamed on the regime, among many other things, by the International Federation for Human Rights (IFHR, French: FIDH). They never answered my requests for any evidence, but their claim would have come through their local affiliate, the Libyan League for Human Rights (LLHR), headed by general secretary Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir. Though dimly aware at least of their importance, I haven't written on this person or entity directly, at all, until now.

For an undeniably solid starting point, I thank Les Blough for this tip from Lizzie Phelan about a valuable new partial documentary (Potential financiers: that's the problem. Get ahold of them). It's largely based so far on a candid interviews with Dr. Bouchuiguir that does a great job of introducing him and his important role in starting the war against Libya. It was apparently this man, more than anyone, who had to have knowingly laundered propaganda talking points into credible-sounding real-world human rights abuses, requiring very physical punishment.

The Humanitarian War
It's a French language production so far, but as English as possible within that. Good subtitles.

From wherever exactly, via Axis of Logic:
One of the main sources for the claim that Gaddafi was killing his own people is the Libyan League for Human Rights (LLHR), an organisation linked to the International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH). On the 21st of February 2011, the General-Secretary of the LLHR, Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir, initiated a petition in collaboration with the organisation UN Watch and the National Endowment for Democracy. This petition was signed by more than 70 NGOs. Then a few days later, on the 25th of February, Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir went to U.N. Human Rights Council in order to expose the allegations concerning the crimes of Gaddafi's government. In July 2011 we went to Geneva to interview Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir.

Below I plan to copy over some of his interesting statements, and perhaps add more information and links.


  1. Those 70+ NGOs are a rag tag bunch, not exactly big hitters. Notice right below Mr Bouchuiguir Victims of Pan Am Flight 103, Inc., USA

  2. The 21 February appeal to the UN is here. Preseted just before the 2 Libyan jets appear in Malta. Nice timing..
    It includes the interesting line ..."Women and children were seen jumping off Giuliana Bridge in Benghazi to escape. Many of them were killed by the impact of hitting the water, while others were drowned..."

    And all the signatories had proof of all that? Who wrote it?

  3. VPA103, did not catch that. One "human rights group" among all others based on nothing but lies against Libya. A perfect fit. Their treasurer signed too, maybe hoping this could get them more money somehow (some PA103 victims suggested Libya's frozen state funds should be given to them - $10mil per each of 270 victims just wasn't enough)

    Francis Fukuyama's on there. I recognize that PNAC scum.

    The jumping off bridges part I've seen twice, once here, and once in a by-line from the Telegraph (IIRC) Feb. 19. Not in the article, just the long by-line.
    140 'massacred' as Gaddafi sends in snipers to crush dissent ... Women and children leapt from bridges to their deaths as they tried to escape a ruthless crackdown ... artillery and helicopter gunships were used against crowds ... thugs armed with hammers and swords attacked families in their homes ...
    So where this stuff came from, I still don't know. No names given, no bodies shown, no witness reports, certainly no photos or videos I know of...

  4. Jumping off bridges

    The Women and children....killed by the impact... surfaced in the Sunday Telegraph, 20 Feb 2011, article by Nick Meo quoting a Libyan journalist (unnamed).

    However, ABC Australia posted a story at 12.49hrs [GMT + 10 I assume] i.e. 04.49hrs Libyan time, 18 Feb 2011 :
    "Speaking exclusively to the ABC's The World Today program, a Libyan protester said he had witnessed children and young protesters jumping off Benghazi's historic Giuliana bridge to escape security forces.

    "Twelve people died," the man, known as Mohamed, told The World Today, saying eight of the deaths happened when security forces attacked protesters in the middle of Benghazi.

    In a separate incident at the Giuliana bridge, Mohamed said "there were security forces ... with military men from Chad, acting with force."

    "He [Gaddafi] brought people, military men from Chad. People were jumping off Giuliana bridge in fear ... and the water was really deep ... children, I swear," he added.

    Oddly, this story appears dateline 17 Feb at the 17th Feb Youth Movement website

    The original ABC Australia transcript is here, broadcast 12.14 local time. The source is referred to as Mohammed, and not described as a journalist, but a demonstrator. The interview is said to have occurred earlier. The reporter is from ABC Sydney. Was he speaking by phone from Benghazi? It is not told
    "MOHAMED" ends by saying: I hope you're not from the Libyan government and you are going to arrest me. Why is the REPORTER not named??

  5. Here is the ABC Australia transcript from The World Today at 12.14hrs local time, 18 Feb 2011:
    Libyan Protester describes government crackdown
    (There is a MP3 download - it is translated from arabic)

    TANYA NOLAN: Now to a Middle East uprising that's been extremely difficult for the media to cover - Libya, where officials say seven people have been killed in anti-government protests this week.

    (Sound of protesters)

    The "Day of Rage" organised by those opposed to the regime of president Muammar Gaddafi ended as a day of sorrow for many who were subjected to a brutal crackdown by security forces and military operatives brought in from neighbouring Chad.

    Earlier we spoke to a man involved in the demonstrations in the city of Benghazi, 1000 kilometres from the capital Tripoli, where he says 12 people were killed. And he told us he witnessed people including children jumping to their deaths from a bridge in fear.

    Here is a translation of that interview.

    MOHAMED: Twelve people died.

    REPORTER: Twelve people died?

    MOHAMED: Yes and there were people at the bridge of Giuliana, downtown in Umar Ibn Al Aas street.

    REPORTER: At the bridge of Giuliana?

    MOHAMED: No in the middle of the city on the street Omr el bas (phonetic). That's where eight people died.

    But there were security forces at Giuliana Bridge with military men from Chad acting with force.

    REPORTER: He brought people from Chad?

    MOHAMED: Yes from Chad. He brought people, military men from Chad.

    People, children were jumping off Giuliana bridge in fear. Children I swear. In the water, some of them drowned.

    REPORTER: How many people were protesting today?

    MOHAMED: I cannot tell you exactly but about 30,000 or 40,000 and maybe in Salmaniya there were about 10,000 to 15,000. In the city, I'm in the centre of the city, 30,000. In the Berka another 10,000 . So to tell you the truth it's a world of people.

    REPORTER: So all the protesters together were about 80,000?

    MOHAMED: Maybe about that. Around 60,000 or 70,000. The regime is unjust and armed.

    REPORTER: And who organised these protests?

    MOHAMED: The youth are the organisers.

    REPORTER: So is there no proper organisation, no political organisation?

    MOHAMED: No we don't have here unions and syndicates or political parties, just youth going out on the "Day of Rage" maybe 48 died in Benghazi.

    REPORTER: So the killing is still ongoing?

    MOHAMED: There is no radio or TV that covers this news. And I think that there are people being taken from their homes at three and four o'clock in the morning so there's no safety.

    REPORTER: Are there any pro-government supporters?

    MOHAMED: Yes there are thugs that come from the government. They get paid 5,000 and the latest model car just to get rid of these demonstrators.

    Where are you from?

    REPORTER: I'm from the ABC, Sydney.

    MOHAMED: I hope you're not from the Libyan government and you are going to arrest me.

    TANYA NOLAN: That's Libyan protestor Mohamed who would like to remain anonymous. And he was speaking to us earlier from the city of Benghazi.

  6. There is quite a bit of YouTube footage of the mass protest march over this bridge - this one uploaded on 17 Feb. Others uploaded much later in July, eg here. Everything peaceful, but a very large crowd. And of course, nothing is shown remotely like what was reported to ABC in Australia and the world.

  7. And another angle from below the bridge by Slinky9111 , again nothing much happening. Some more shots by Slinky9111 of chanting here and also here the latter from kadekke6 ,uploaded feb 17th

    Footage here by fathesaleh71 from 'Ashreen Street, marching - peaceful, uploaded 17 Feb.
    And this is the basis for the ABC broadcast...

    For comparison, here is some footage of events on 15 February 2006

  8. That's interesting stuff too, worth its own post. The massacre at the bridge no one could film. Not even a massacre, a mini-mass suicide caused by fright at the dreadful African faces, sounds like, for just "acting with force." Oh my God, it's over, jump!

    Did people actually fall off in some crowd-related accident? If so, I imagine we'd have seen the drowned bodies and it would have been one of the biggest atrocity stories, with mercs tossing people in just as arbitrarily as a mob crush.

    No,I think this is total fiction. Maybe one person fell in but swam out fine, and that was the inspiration. But this was repeated to the media AND to the UN as a clear sign of the scale of the horror.It was so horrible that people were committing suicide with their kids right there on what, Feb 17? Insane.

    Not many took it seriously, it seems, or it'd be a bigger (more repeated) story today. But the "activists" really tried with this, didn't they?

    What do you make of this strange yarn and its back story and what it can teach us?

  9. Is it all faked? Probably. Reporter says "I'm from the ABC, Sydney".Did ABC really have a reporter in Libya? But it provided useful shock horror stories. Australia is also a good place to plant info, as it can be copied around the world through the time zones as the earth rotates and TVs and radios turn on...

    Interestingly and coincidentally.....read about this Australian activist here, Sheik Nasser Zuway who today was reported killed in Sirte and "buried in Benghazi last night", 19 October 2011. Had been in Libya since February with wife and 3 children. See video interview with Keysar Trad
    "Keysar Trad, from the Islamic Friendship Association of Australia, says the cleric had travelled to Libya to be with his wife and children and help those injured in the uprising.

    In March, Sheikh Zuway told ABC Radio's The World Today that he was willing to die in the fight for democracy in Libya.

    "Sheikh Zuway, who was also the president of the Australian Union of African and Arab Associations, escaped the persecution of the Gaddafi regime, arriving in Australia as a political refugee in 1999. He was granted citizenship two years later.

    "One of his relatives, Hassan Enbaiwa, says the sheikh was killed by a Gaddafi loyalist soldier in Sirte on Monday.

    "Mr Enbaiwa says Sheikh Zuway had been helping people get aid.

    "He's killed inside Sirte in a suburb named Hay al Dollar," he said.

    "He was helping the people who have problems to get medical help and take these people to hospital because he has an idea about this job."

    Speaking on behalf of the sheikh's extended family, Keysar Trad says it is still unclear exactly what he was doing in Sirte when he was killed.

    "We don't know the full details. I know in the first month or so when he got there he was asking me to help him get medical supplies from Turkey," he said.

    "I received an invoice from one of the medical suppliers in Turkey for medical supplies for treatment of broken limbs and treatment of burns, etcetera.

    "And after that we heard that he was helping defend his people; he was helping look after one of the cities, and the specific details of what was happening in Sirte, none of us has any idea at the moment."

    Mr Trad says while Sheikh Zuway was associated with the National Transitional Council, he is not sure of the extent of his activities.

    "He was with the resistance. He's very close friends with the leadership of that transitional council and I don't know the extent of the duties that were allocated to him," he said.

    "He may well have been defending people with arms, but we don't know at this stage the extent of that."

    I have some more ABC stuff to go through yet.

  10. There is a YouTube video of Mr Bouchouiguir from Tunisia, dated 17 May 2011 in arabic. He also appears elsewhere as Soliman B. e.g.
    Libyans fleeing to Egypt as Gaddafi advances:UN (Reuters) 15 March 2011

    "Soliman Bouchuiguir, the president of a Libyan exile human rights organisation in Geneva and who for many years worked for the U.N., told Reuters on Monday he expected "a bloodbath, a massacre like we saw in Rwanda" if Benghazi fell."

    The UK representative of the LLHR is Khaeri Giuma Aboushagor tel.(+44) 7747896370
    Here he is,centre, with Richard Howitt Labour MEP (and a Yemeni) at the European Parliament, 23 March 2011 where over three days, 21-23 March 2011, he schmoozed with EU ministers courtesy of International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) represented by Michel Ballout and Gregoire Thery. His address has been removed from the video.
    "LLHR representatives [including Ali Zidan, spokesman for the Interim TNC] used the opportunity to convey the Libyan people's thanks and gratitude for the European countries that supported the UNSC resolution 1973 and for their unwavering support of the Libyan people in their struggle to be free. They were able to brief ministers, representatives and officials of the EU on the current human rights situation in Libya, on the medical and humanitarian assistance required, on issues concerning Libya post Gaddafi, and on the urgent need to take all steps that will stop the Gaddafi regime from committing more atrocities

    Mr Aboushagor also schmoozed with UK parliamentarians inside the House of Commons on 2 March 2011 at a Henry Jackson Society Emergency Meeting: Committee for a Democratic Libya:
    "This evening, Nobel Peace Prize Winner Lord David Trimble, Khaeri Aboushagor (UK Representative of the Libyan League for Human Rights) and Air Vice Marshal Tony Mason will join more than 100 Parliamentarians, diplomats, journalists and others at a meeting in Parliament to discuss the British Government’s response to the crisis

    Ahead of a meeting convened by The Henry Jackson Society in Parliament tonight, we urge the Prime Minister to stand fast in his commitment to put a stop to the crimes of Colonel Gaddafi, including through the implementation of a no-fly zone and active assistance to Libyan opposition movements in conjunction with our allies.
    (all based on lies)
    The Henry Jackson Society -"Project for Democratic Geopolitics" - briefing paper from 21 February 2011 is here

    Signatories of the HJS include Robert Halfon MP, Conservative friend of Israel and enemy of Gaddafi and Sir Richard Dearlove, ex-head of MI6

    Mr Bouchuiguir has now become the Libyan Ambassador to Bern, and

  11. More about the Australian Sheik Zuway here...
    "He was anti-radicalisation. We held a de-radicalisation conference together on 18th of February called 'Dialogue: The Language of Power'. He left two days after that [for Libya]."
    Sheikh Zuway's wife and children travelled to Benghazi in Libya last July.
    The cleric went there to see if they should return to Australia - after Gaddafi's forces started to hit back against demonstrators challenging his 42-year regime.

    The head of the Zuwaya tribe in Libya, is Shaikh Faraj Al Zuway, who, on 20 February told Al Jazeera "We will stop oil exports to Western countries within 24 hours" if the violence did not stop."

    The Australian Foreign Minister, Kevin Rudd, is trying to find out what happened to Mr Zaway who In an interview with ABC Radio in February, Sheik Zuway said he had travelled to Benghazi to protect his wife and children who were holidaying** in the city when the Libyan uprising began..
    **since July 2010.

  12. And more from the archives of ABC Australia, this time 22 February 2011:
    Medical aid convoy heads for Libya
    Abdul spoke to ABC Radio's The World Today by satellite phone, as he was driving along the highway between Cairo and Alexandria.
    Abdul was born in Cairo, lived in London and took part in the Egyptian protests.
    He is now a member of a medical relief effort that is being organised through Facebook and is trying to deliver medical supplies and tents from Egypt into Benghazi and possibly even to Tripoli.
    Abdul says the idea for the aid convoy was hatched about three or four days ago and organised through Facebook.
    "I was contacted by friends and other people around the world, from Canada, the States, the Emirates, Qatar, even people here in Egypt, and everyone has just come together," he said.
    "Several people flew into Cairo today and they have all been meeting up and putting things together."
    Abdul says he is bringing truckloads of medicines and first aid kits, especially to treat gunshot wounds.
    "I have spoken to a doctor over there yesterday or the day before yesterday and they have run out of thread to stitch up wounds," he said.
    "That is how bad it has gotten. They really don't have anything. There is thousands and thousands of casualties and they don't have even space.
    "We are even taking tents with us to put up outside the hospital because there is no more space in the hospital."

    "The people have taken over the city," he said.

    "But there are still, from what I've heard, there are still mercenaries and still security forces who are still fighting.

    "They are still attacking the people over there. Of course the people have taken up arms themselves and it is literally a war zone there."

    They are not using water cannons against them, they are not using tear gas. They are using live ammunition," he said.
    "I've even been told that there is heavy conflict gunships who are flying over crowds and opening fire onto them. I've heard reports of fighter jets opening fire onto crowds and, none of that happened in Egypt."

    (AUDIO LINK here) where "Abdul" says in his English accent at about 6.20 "I've been told that they are using aeroplanes to shoot people and bomb people on the ground (laughs)..I mean,it's turned into a war zone situation and obviously they are killing the people, don't want them to get medicine (laughs),they don't want them to survive (laughs)..."

    A medical convoy hatched "THREE OR FOUR DAYS AGO" - it is only 16.30 on 22 Feb in Sydney - i.e 8.30 am Libya time.. Three or four days ago - takes us pretty well back to the 17th. ,the day of the planned protest.

  13. More from Australian broadcasting on this page: 18.18 hrs 18 Feb 2011. ABC PM Violence at protests in Middle East
    February 17, 2011 18:18:00

    MARK COLVIN: Protests in the Middle East have turned ugly, as police in several countries have moved to crack down on demonstrators.

    People have been killed in clashes in Libya and Yemen.

    In Bahrain at least two people died when police raided a camp where protestors were staying. The Guardian correspondent there says the death toll is up to three.

    Eyewitnesses say the raids were completely unprovoked and came without warning.

    Timothy McDonald reports.

    TIMOTHY MCDONALD: Demonstrators clashed with security forces in the town of Bayda, near Benghazi, Libya's second largest city.

    This witness told Al Jazeera that the protestors were calling for the Colonel Muammar Gaddafi to step down.

    PROTESTER (translated): …Demonstrators about four kilometres from the centre of the city and went to the police station and burned it down completely and there were clashes between them and the members of the security police, which led to the murder of two people; two killed and more than seven injured.

    TIMOTHY MCDONALD: Activists are planning more major anti-government protests throughout the country.

    Ashur Shamis is a London based Libyan writer. He says Colonel Gaddafi's four decade long rule has taken a huge toll on the country, and people are fed up.

    ASHUR SHAMIS: There must be something that is wrong in the society and this is because of the corruption; you know the corruption is spread like a pandemic in Libya today and the people who are ruling the country, they are the people who practise the corruption, it's not that they are fighting it or… the people who are in charge of things, they are corrupt.

    Ashur Shamis wrote of Gaddafi here for Libya Human and Political Development Forum How Much 'Reformed' Is Libya's Dictator? 11 November 2004 and one of the founding members of the National Front for the Salvation of Libya NFSL, as seen at 6.00 in this video from Al Jazeera, 5 March 2011.

  14. I think the report above (it is the 17th, thus referring to the 16th in Bayda) starts off I think...."started the demonstration about 4 km... difficult to hear the original. The interview would have been at 10.18 local Libyan time, 17 Feb.
    More from ABC....the next day on PM, 18 February 2011.

    At least seven people are dead in Libya after protesting against the government and the country's leader, Muammar Gaddafi. One demonstrator told The World Today he witnessed people jumping to their deaths.

    PROTESTER (translated): He brought people, military men from Chad. People, children were jumping off Juliana Bridge in fear, children, I swear, in the water. Some of them drowned.

    BRONWYN HERBERT: Professor Amin Saikal is the director of The Centre for Arab and Islamic Studies at the Australian National University.

    AMIN SAIKAL: The fact that unrest has broken out in a country like Libya, that had not been really anticipated because Colonel Gaddafi has instituted a very repressive system of his own, that clearly shows that people would like to take advantage of uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia in order bring about important changes in their own societies. But whether they are really going to succeed in the case of, for example, Libya, that remains to be seen.

  15. Bouchuiguir's role is analysed by William Blum www.killinghope.org , 1 November 2011 :"Bouchuiguir is asked several times if he can document various charges made against the Libyan leader. Where is the proof of the many rapes? The many other alleged atrocities? The more than 6,000 civilians alleged killed by Gaddafi's planes? Again and again Bouchuiguir cites the National Transitional Council as the source. Yes, that's the rebels who carried out the civil war in conjunction with the NATO/US forces. At other times Bouchuiguir speaks of "eyewitnesses": "little girls, boys who were there, whose families we know personally". After awhile, he declares that "there is no way" to document these things. This is probably true to some extent, but why, then, the UN Security Council resolution for a military intervention in Libya? Why almost eight months of bombing?

    Bouchuiguir also mentions his organization's working with the National Endowment for Democracy in their effort against Gaddafi, and one has to wonder if the man has any idea that the NED was founded to be a front for the CIA. Literally.

    Another source of charges against Gaddafi and his sons has been the International Criminal Court. The Court's Chief Prosecutor, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, is shown in this film at a news conference discussing the same question of proof of the charges. He refers to an ICC document of 77 pages which he says contains the evidence. The film displays the document's Table of Contents, which shows that pages 17-71 are not available to the public; these pages, apparently the ones containing the testimony and evidence, are marked as "redacted". In an appendix, the ICC report lists its news sources; these include Fox News, CNN, the CIA, Soliman Bouchuiguir, and the Libyan League for Human Rights. Earlier, the film had presented Bouchuiguir citing the ICC as one of his sources. The documentation is thus a closed circle.

  16. People like you never cease to surprise me. I know Dr. Bouchuiguir very well, he was a wanted man by gaddafi because he exposed the truth about the brutality of the regime.

    My cousin was one of the 1,300 killed in about slim prison in 1996, he was 20 years old. I cannot provide you with any proof because his bodies lies entangles with the 1,300 other prisoners in a mass grave. I hate it when ignorant outsiders talk about Libya. Dr. Bouchouguir is a great man and deserves the utmost respect for his work in human rights not only for the people of libya but throughout the world. He has advocated for the protection of human rights and played a pivotal role in South Africa and Cambodia are just two examples.

  17. Chloe21, thanks you for stepping in with a comment. Hope it's not the last. If you meant I surprise you, thanks. If you meant Felix, I'll let him speak to that.

    Wanted for speaking the truth? I'm sure that's not the charge specified. Wanted for spreading lies maybe, politically targeted to destabilize an already besieged regime. That would not be surprising, if true. That's what they dragged Iman off for, and turns out she was raving nuts, at the least.

    I don't know Mr. Bouchuiguir at all, but he seems personable,and I applaud any even-handed work he's actually done for human rights. But regarding his homeland, he's been caught passing on unsubstantiated tripe to demonize his government and get it bombed to smithereens, admitting the civilian killings and bombings and mass rape and African mercenaries aren't documented and for some reason can't be. Most of these accusations don't even make sense. But he doesn't seem to care.

    Why the world took him seriously, or acted as if they did, is another kettle of fish entirely. Same forces, I suspect, that got Libya framed and punished for the Lockerbie bombing when they didn't do it.

    On the prison massacre, you would have some inside knowledge that might help. I don't claim to know much about that incident, which falls between the big lies of '88-'91 and those of 2011, but I have questions about what I do know, and found this article very informative.

    What do you think? How did you become convinced just how, when, and where your cousin was killed? I gather quite a few families were convinced, and people must really be missing, but the way it all came together into one catalyzing slaughter of epic proportions to use as a anti-government rallying cry is not totally convincing to my eyes.

  18. www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIFrrcAuGaI
    James Corbett & Julien Teil.

    However,when it comes to Syria, "International intervention in the form of Nato action similar to that used in Libya has been discounted." (Evening Standard London , December 2 2011)
    Er, I wonder why?

  19. By the way, one thing you may not know. Dr Bouchuiguir's predecessor was assasinated, and he still chose to take the job. His sons could never go to North Africa or certain other places in case of attack. Stories would come back to the family about relatives being beaten up and told that the secret police know where all his children are.

    It's difficult to document and then analyze in real time while a slaughter is happening. We all saw on tv what Ghadafi was doing to his own people. Now Libya has a chance to start over.

    Regarding connections between the human rights organisation and the NTC, it's completely understandable. Obviously people who are fighting a dictator domestically and from abroad will talk and support each other.

    1. @Anonymous – Could you be more specific. Who was Dr Bouchuiguir's predecessor? When was he assassinated? Where? By whom?

      Can you provide a reference on the assassination?

    2. Anon, thanks for the comment. At the risk of chasing you away (mostdisappear after one comment anyway)...

      It's difficult to document and then analyze in real time while a slaughter is happening.
      And form an accurate picture, when wild rumors are flying against the regime, and when you want to demonize them and cause panic, of course it's hard to analyze and offer a clear and realistic picture. But they sure acted like they actually knew what was going on, and a lot of powerful people (who have supported and helped form "human rights" groups like this worldwide) just really wanted to believe them.

      It can all seem kind of weird until you start to grasp how things might really be working behind the scenes.

      We all saw on tv what Ghadafi was doing to his own people.
      No. You saw people repeating reports (rumors) as if they were true, and some of the after-effects of the violence (dead people). You didn't see the violence itself on TV where it would be clarified how and why they'd been killed. If you have, please show me where. I've been looking for a while now.

      Any other group anywhere tries things like these militant wackos were pulling back in February and beyond, you better bet the responsible government there would wind up killing their own people. Abraham Lincoln killed the hell out of "his own people," by a definition at least as good as yours.

      Now Libya has a chance to start over.
      They'd better. Everything's been smashed an brutalized. Note it's a chance, perhaps a requirement, not a choice.

  20. Petri-Krohn, his name was Mansour Rashid El-Kikhia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansour_Rashid_El-Kikhia

    Castic Logic, I think it's one thing to dispute the numbers and facts given by the rebels and their NGO supporters, its another to deny that there was a body of opposition to the rule of Ghaddafi and his dictatorship. Nor deny that the opposition was violently suppressed. Ghaddafi miscalculated that this opposition could not get essential and military support in order to change the destiny of the country. He was wrong. I feel this argument is trying to draw comparison with WMDs and Iraq... Clearly wrong. Why are you trying to compare to 19th century people like Lincoln.. We're in the 21st century. Dictatorships don't and wont last the world over...

    1. Thanks, Anon. I too was curious about the assassinated predecessor. El-Hikhia is the man then? I'll need to read the e-mails I've been getting about him from Petri and Felix. This isn't a main area for me, so I'm behind.

      I don't at all dispute there was opposition. There was a good amount of it, well-fed from outside. Maybe it even formed a plurality with those of lukewarm support and neutral, leaving real loyalists in a minority. But it's not as they said all the Libyan people minus a few brainwashed loyalists had demanded the government be destroyed and replaced with anything in particular. That was just the West's pet project, with enough Libyan proxies who said the right things in the right channels to make it seem justified.

      I don't deny the opposition was violently suppressed. It was violent, taking over army bases as early as Feb. 18,taking heavy weapons and killing soldiers by then at latest, blaming the regime and calling it repression. So the government moved to repress that shit, and I don't blame them.

      Gaddafi knew they'd get Western support of any kind they needed. He had to change the illusion the whole country had risen up. Without people, you can't have a military to impose order, and they had that and made quick work of it. We were days away from the rebellion's capitol being reincorporated into that order on March 19. The bombing that started then was to prevent a rebel loss and loss of illusion that Libya was against Gaddafi, NOT the "threatened massacre" of the whole city that was made up.

      That's my take, anyway. We're doing it again in Syria, but man is it slow motion in comparison to the Responsibility 2 Panic operation we saw in Libya. Now they show they can even do it without panic. Sheer will can do it, and the training wheels come off.

    2. Naturally, if you have a revolution, whether it is backed by one or other superpower or not, it is not likely to please all the people. As far as I can read, there is no evidence for the official narrative about what happened to Khikia other than which emanates from the C1A. In otherwords, single sourced. Well, the superpowers , or some of them, certainly called time on Gaddafi's Libya but the basis for the intervention and eventual was imo based on lies and fakery. Let's see if democracy can make a greater number happy. And I mean citizens of Libya who have always and will always live there, not the recently active and highly educated and vocal emigres who have no intention whatsoever of returning to their old country.

    3. Why are you trying to compare to 19th century people like Lincoln.. We're in the 21st century. Dictatorships don't and wont last the world over...

      Happy President's Day! ("Tawergha" recently used a G.W. comparison too -I think the extra images of them about contributed, if he's American).

      So, what about the 21st century makes it illegitimate for governments to put down armed insurrections or defend weapons depots, army bases, police stations, etc? Shooting actual peaceful protesters in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia: allowed, officially discouraged, but tacitly required and enabled. What's so different about Libya or now Syria and next maybe Iran?

  21. http://sp.rian.ru/international/20111206/151889582.html

    Libyan ambassador in Switzerland recognizes lack of evidence of alleged crimes of Gaddafi regime


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