January 18, 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdwJcqA-AhI
Dr Moussa Ibrahim's first public address since Nato's War on Libya in 2011
Published on Jan 17, 2015
Description: On Mon 12 Jan 2015 in Committee Room 15 in the Houses of Parliament Dr Moussa Ibrahim addresses the event 'Libya: Nato's Untold Story' organised by the Tricontinental Anti-Imperialist Platform. This is the first time Dr Ibrahim has addressed the public and media in english since his advocacy for justice for Libya as Libyan Jamahiryan government spokesperson through the Nato war of aggression against Libya in 2011.
He speaks on behalf of the Libyan National Popular Movement. He's personally in Belin. It can go like that. I like Dr. Ibrahim (see here and here), and will tend to support a movement he's speaking for. I'll try to watch the whole thing soon. Just had to get this up quick once I saw it.
The Site that Asks: Is the "dictator" justifying intervention by killing innocents? Or is someone else doing it for him? (previously The Libyan Civil War: Critical Views)
Showing posts with label Ibrahim M. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Ibrahim M. Show all posts
Saturday, January 17, 2015
Wednesday, August 24, 2011
A Legitimate Target.
Select Thoughts on the Majer Massacre
August 12/13, 2011
last update Aug 24
First, for those who don't know, Majer is a small city just south of Zlitan in Western Libya. Zlitan in turn was a major objective for the rebels between their stronghold of Misrata and the capitol, Tripoli, to the west. NATO bombardment of government, and other, positions in and around Zlitan paved the way for a rebel advance. As always, NATO was protecting (certain, militant) civilians (from not being in control of all Libya), but sometimes, as in Majer, they wound up killing (non-militarized) civilians in the process.
The people responsible still cannot confirm, nor do they have no evidence for, any of the following being true.
Dr. Moussa Ibrahim:
Reporters taken to mass funeral in Libyan town, nearby hospital, CNN, August 10
A girl, injured physically but she'll be fine. Emotionally ... she lost someone, possibly several someones.
This one's just dead. Before that, she was just a baby.
Definitely dead, definitely not full grown, not likely to be fake.
But hey, you can't make a fucking omelette without breaking a few eggs, huh? The only way to protect civilians is to get rid of Gaddafi, and if that requires "pressure" that means sometimes killing 33 children, 20 men, 32 women, well ... such is the high cost of the type of freedom we require them to have there. Did they mention some mercenaries might've been killed too? Again for emphasis, Mecenaries - that's code for Gaddafi's faltering, and we're almost done here - just like everyone said back in February.
---
Update Aug 17: At a Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty article about NATO's lack of evidence, a former Libyan with contacts deep inside assures us, in a comment beneath, that NATO is totally right and the government is totally lying, plus murdering:
---
Update, Aug 24:
Amnesty International has called for an investigation, by NATO, of this alleged NATO war crime. Maybe once they can solace themselves with victory uninterrupted by the glaring fucking hypocricy of this war crime, they might then be willing to have a look, and admit some "errors."
A while back, on August 18, Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting (FAIR) ran a thoughtful piece on this denied massacre.
FAIR notes how CNN did send correspondent Ivan Watson to cover the allegations. Despite earlier efforts to cast doubt on government claims, he conceded that in Majer anyways, "it does appear that at least some women and children were among those hurt in this deadly strike." The report also "included an interview with a Libyan who claimed that nine members of his family were killed in the attack, including his two-year old daughter," FAIR noted, as well as "a man who was burying his daughter." CNN opted to run this only on CNN international, largely bypassing domestic viewers and readers.
FAIR did take note of one other good article, from the BBC's Matthew Price, August 11, headlined "What really happened in Libya's Zlitan?" This said in part:
August 12/13, 2011
last update Aug 24
First, for those who don't know, Majer is a small city just south of Zlitan in Western Libya. Zlitan in turn was a major objective for the rebels between their stronghold of Misrata and the capitol, Tripoli, to the west. NATO bombardment of government, and other, positions in and around Zlitan paved the way for a rebel advance. As always, NATO was protecting (certain, militant) civilians (from not being in control of all Libya), but sometimes, as in Majer, they wound up killing (non-militarized) civilians in the process.
The people responsible still cannot confirm, nor do they have no evidence for, any of the following being true.
Dr. Moussa Ibrahim:
Reporters taken to mass funeral in Libyan town, nearby hospital, CNN, August 10
Libyan government officials said the mass funeral witnessed by foreign journalists Tuesday in the village of Majer accounted for a fraction of the people killed by a series of deadly airstrikes late Monday night.No. One at least - very graphic video - seems to be in military clothing. Another blown to small bits (worse yet) is a grown male, at any rate. The others...
"Eighty-five Libyan civilians, including 33 children, 20 men, 32 women and we're still counting, were massacred last night in an intensive air raid by NATO on the town of Majer," declared the spokesman for Moammar Gadhafi's besieged government, Musa Ibrahim.
It is impossible for CNN to confirm the extent of the casualties, and whether or not they were all civilian.
In an e-mail to CNN, NATO confirmed that aircraft bombed targets south of Zlitan Monday night. But a spokesman for the military alliance denied targeting civilians.Here's the evidence. Mercenaries?
"NATO had very clear intelligence demonstrating that former farm buildings were being used as a staging point for pro-Gadhafi forces to conduct attacks against the people of Libya," wrote a public affairs officer with NATO's Operation Unified Protector, on condition of anonymity. "We do not have evidence of civilian casualties at this stage, although military casualties, including mercenaries, are very likely owing to the nature of the target."
A girl, injured physically but she'll be fine. Emotionally ... she lost someone, possibly several someones.
This one's just dead. Before that, she was just a baby.
Definitely dead, definitely not full grown, not likely to be fake.
But hey, you can't make a fucking omelette without breaking a few eggs, huh? The only way to protect civilians is to get rid of Gaddafi, and if that requires "pressure" that means sometimes killing 33 children, 20 men, 32 women, well ... such is the high cost of the type of freedom we require them to have there. Did they mention some mercenaries might've been killed too? Again for emphasis, Mecenaries - that's code for Gaddafi's faltering, and we're almost done here - just like everyone said back in February.
---
Update Aug 17: At a Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty article about NATO's lack of evidence, a former Libyan with contacts deep inside assures us, in a comment beneath, that NATO is totally right and the government is totally lying, plus murdering:
by: namour from: tunisiaSo there it is. Carry on in good conscience. Yes, there were dead bodies there, but a real live Libyan has assured you the cartoon version of Libya and of NATO's war that you all have in your heads is true. And the only answer to that is more bombs, says this person with family in Zliten (not Majer) who all feel safe under NATO's bombing of that area, and probably fear nothing more than that it should stop. If it's bad, Gaddafi did it, and yay! We win with good guy power! Says an online account!
August 11, 2011 12:25
Reply Hi ... my family lives in majer area of zliten i cntacted my family and told me that all dead are ghadafi forces including his son KHAMIS who surely died in this strike NO CIVILIANS Affected , they brought kidnapped families from MISURATA and shot them with tanks and brought their bodies to the nato bombarded scene plus extra dead bodies and they have done cosmetic work on children bodies by burning them what i have said i am sure of because houses hit from the front not from above.
so NATO carry on and GOD PLESS NATO AND ALL NATO COUNTRIES who are participating in protecting this people.
again thanx NATO officers.
by the way allllll libyans know this fact.
---
Update, Aug 24:
Amnesty International has called for an investigation, by NATO, of this alleged NATO war crime. Maybe once they can solace themselves with victory uninterrupted by the glaring fucking hypocricy of this war crime, they might then be willing to have a look, and admit some "errors."
A while back, on August 18, Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting (FAIR) ran a thoughtful piece on this denied massacre.
Allegations of Libyan civilian deaths as a result of NATO bombing have often been covered in the corporate media as an opportunity to scoff at the Gadhafi regime's unconvincing propaganda (FAIR Blog, 6/9/11).The bolded should be in quotes or something. Breaking the near silence, several articles are mentioned, including Reuters:
But dramatic new allegations that dozens of civilians were killed in Majer after NATO airstrikes on August 8 have been met with near-total media silence.
"There was no evidence of weapons at the farmhouses, but there were no bodies there, either. Nor was there blood."No blood anywhere? Many bodies were charred and their blood cooked away. The third video below had pieces of human flesh being picked up lovingly by the wailing workers, with no blood visible or expected. One imagines the soldiers and "mercenaries" NATO thinks it killed, who just boiled a bit as they were blasted open like water balloons, would leave some blood around there somewhere. Civilians will do the same. Reuters was looking in the wrong spot.
FAIR notes how CNN did send correspondent Ivan Watson to cover the allegations. Despite earlier efforts to cast doubt on government claims, he conceded that in Majer anyways, "it does appear that at least some women and children were among those hurt in this deadly strike." The report also "included an interview with a Libyan who claimed that nine members of his family were killed in the attack, including his two-year old daughter," FAIR noted, as well as "a man who was burying his daughter." CNN opted to run this only on CNN international, largely bypassing domestic viewers and readers.
FAIR did take note of one other good article, from the BBC's Matthew Price, August 11, headlined "What really happened in Libya's Zlitan?" This said in part:
[NATO] confirmed it had hit the area, targeting four buildings and nine vehicles at the site between 23.33 on Monday and 02.34 on Tuesday.
The times for the strikes correspond with those given by people in the area.
Nato went on: "We monitored this military compound very carefully before striking."
"Our assessment, based on the level of destruction of the buildings, confirms the likelihood of military and mercenary casualties. The allegation of civilian casualties made by the Gaddafi regime was not corroborated by available factual information at the site."
Try telling that however to 15 year-old Salwa Jawoo. Her name was on some of the school books at the scene - I found her in Zliten hospital. Her face was scarred - she had a broken shoulder.
She said she was sitting outside her home when the first missile struck. It was the second one that injured her. "There was no military camp. We were just living there. Why did they attack us?" she asked.
"My mother died, and my two sisters," she added, with a sigh. A tear ran down her cheek as she spoke. Her grief was genuine.More video of the dead, the living and angered, and those on the verge. It's plenty graphic, several dead babies and children.
Sunday, August 14, 2011
Whose Cluster Bombs Fell on Misrata?
June 8/9 2011
last update (pulled) August 14
I've pulled down this article, finally. It seems Human Rights Investigations was wrong on pretty much all fronts, and has been correcting the record, with help even from C.J. Chivers, etc. I won't bother trying to sort out just what turned out different vs. what I had passed on before. Updates can be, or should be able to be, found at the HRI site. If anyone would like a copy of the old article summarizing the flawed arguments, drop me a line.
In short, if the case for a NATO false flag operation in Misrata has fallen apart, it would seem Libyan forces did non-lethally deploy semi-banned cluster munitions they're now known to hold, despite the government denials (see Moussa Ibrahim). This isn't the gravest or most illogical move for them to make, but it is troubling if it's a government order.
However, perhaps mr. Ibrahim and the government didn't know of such an order because it didn't exist. Is it possible a rogue field commander got hold of some MAT-120 shells and used them on his own authority? Or that he made sure to shoot them harmlessly towards the journalist area, only to be seen and cause problems for the regime he was betraying? Yeah, either is possible. In fact, I'm going with either one of these, or an actual order from on high as the two best guesses. It's one alleged Gaddafi regime crime I cannot rule out.
last update (pulled) August 14
I've pulled down this article, finally. It seems Human Rights Investigations was wrong on pretty much all fronts, and has been correcting the record, with help even from C.J. Chivers, etc. I won't bother trying to sort out just what turned out different vs. what I had passed on before. Updates can be, or should be able to be, found at the HRI site. If anyone would like a copy of the old article summarizing the flawed arguments, drop me a line.
In short, if the case for a NATO false flag operation in Misrata has fallen apart, it would seem Libyan forces did non-lethally deploy semi-banned cluster munitions they're now known to hold, despite the government denials (see Moussa Ibrahim). This isn't the gravest or most illogical move for them to make, but it is troubling if it's a government order.
However, perhaps mr. Ibrahim and the government didn't know of such an order because it didn't exist. Is it possible a rogue field commander got hold of some MAT-120 shells and used them on his own authority? Or that he made sure to shoot them harmlessly towards the journalist area, only to be seen and cause problems for the regime he was betraying? Yeah, either is possible. In fact, I'm going with either one of these, or an actual order from on high as the two best guesses. It's one alleged Gaddafi regime crime I cannot rule out.
Sunday, August 7, 2011
Dr. Moussa Ibrahim, August Press Conferences
August 7 2011
last update Sept. 14
Dr. Moussa Ibrahim, the spokesman of Libya - real Libya, not made up rebel Libya - has some worthwhile words on the recent and future, given at still-regular press conferences. Despite increased pressure to mute Tripoli, he is still able to post press conferences, usually a couple of days behind, on his Youtube channel.
And I have some good posts coming up, but not ready yet. Ergo, this filler. (even then, I can't claim to be following or understanding the recent chaos on the Benghazi side).
August 3, Tripoli, English:
He promised a trip to Zlitan, and reported the next day from there with some press in tow.
August 4, Zlitan, Arabic:
August 4, English - hard questions throughout, but strongest near the end:
Sept. 14: Bit of a throwaway post, but there were more August press conferences. One about the 10th was from Majer, near Zlitan, asking whether the 33 children killed were "a legitimate target." By the end of month he was fleeing, later speaking defiance by phone to obscure media outlets. He continues to stand up for what he feels is right, and will likely be dead before long, mutilated I'd guess.
last update Sept. 14
Dr. Moussa Ibrahim, the spokesman of Libya - real Libya, not made up rebel Libya - has some worthwhile words on the recent and future, given at still-regular press conferences. Despite increased pressure to mute Tripoli, he is still able to post press conferences, usually a couple of days behind, on his Youtube channel.
And I have some good posts coming up, but not ready yet. Ergo, this filler. (even then, I can't claim to be following or understanding the recent chaos on the Benghazi side).
August 3, Tripoli, English:
He promised a trip to Zlitan, and reported the next day from there with some press in tow.
August 4, Zlitan, Arabic:
August 4, English - hard questions throughout, but strongest near the end:
Sept. 14: Bit of a throwaway post, but there were more August press conferences. One about the 10th was from Majer, near Zlitan, asking whether the 33 children killed were "a legitimate target." By the end of month he was fleeing, later speaking defiance by phone to obscure media outlets. He continues to stand up for what he feels is right, and will likely be dead before long, mutilated I'd guess.
Sunday, June 19, 2011
Libyan Crisis: Events, Causes and Facts
June 6/7 2011
edits July 2
I haven't watched it, but it's important enough to post instantly. Libya's government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim, on his Youtube channel (still not pulled as a war crime!) has uploaded at least two long videos in a series of the above title. Please share this!
Okay, it's two parts. about 30 minutes total, and in English.
Made by R. Breki Goheda, of Tripoli.
Part 1/2:
Part 2:
Just for the unique footage used in abundance, this video is well-worth watching if one is interested in this war. The narration is workable, but should have been re-done, at least in places - there are a lot of verbal type-os. It's better than my Arabic would be. The tone is pro-Gaddafi, with the style of state news, and most English-speakers will find it unconvincing just because of that. However, the facts as presented are in some cases verifiably true and in other case, we at least shouldn't be too quick to dismiss the view from Tripoli. A fair amount of detail is included, and it lines up with what I've been learning elsewhere as the nebulous, emergent, historical truth of the matter.
Part 1, around 6:15, shows the "al Baida massacre" aftermath and interrogation. The scene of the soldiers' capture, if not their execution, is given as happening at Labraq airport, near al Baida.
In essence, the video blames the violence on Islamic extremists who hijacked the peaceful protest - in some spots from the first day - and turned it into a civil war. And they are now enabled by the massive Western intervention of NATO.
It's claimed that contrary to the popular mythology, the government forces tried their best to not massacre civilians. I'm leaning that way myself seeing more and more video evidence, and the government's laxness seems to have been a huge factor in how so many cities and even military bases fell into rebel hands. It could well be argued they should have been more violent early on. Hundreds did indeed die, but on both sides, and nearly all at security bases far from the original protests, during attacks on these that eventually succeeded. A lot of detail is given here on how many total tanks (250) and other weapons fell into rebel hands, along with video of them playing with their new toys.
Besides the massive shooting of peaceful protesters, two other crucial claims are addressed - the bombing of protesters by aircraft, and the use of African mercenaries against them. Both are denied, if in a stale and unconvincing manner. Still, it's true - there's no credible evidence for either type of state crime. In fact, despite the huge importance of the charges, none of the these three main ones was ever verified in any way and thus remain, as Goheda pointedly notes, nothing but rumors.
And of course the UN security council resolutions 1970 and 1973, based on these rumors, opened the way to legal, economic, and military action against Libya. This is, of course, highly troubling now that we learn the rumors were all apparently false. More troubling yet is that the simple excuses were used shamelessly and without consequence or reproach, to muscle through a long-desired regime change agenda that will hand all of Libya to those same "armed gangs" and, more importantly, their US-educated, NATO-backed, free-marketeer puppets for plunder in the rebel leadership.
edits July 2
I haven't watched it, but it's important enough to post instantly. Libya's government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim, on his Youtube channel (still not pulled as a war crime!) has uploaded at least two long videos in a series of the above title. Please share this!
Okay, it's two parts. about 30 minutes total, and in English.
Made by R. Breki Goheda, of Tripoli.
Part 1/2:
Part 2:
Just for the unique footage used in abundance, this video is well-worth watching if one is interested in this war. The narration is workable, but should have been re-done, at least in places - there are a lot of verbal type-os. It's better than my Arabic would be. The tone is pro-Gaddafi, with the style of state news, and most English-speakers will find it unconvincing just because of that. However, the facts as presented are in some cases verifiably true and in other case, we at least shouldn't be too quick to dismiss the view from Tripoli. A fair amount of detail is included, and it lines up with what I've been learning elsewhere as the nebulous, emergent, historical truth of the matter.
Part 1, around 6:15, shows the "al Baida massacre" aftermath and interrogation. The scene of the soldiers' capture, if not their execution, is given as happening at Labraq airport, near al Baida.
In essence, the video blames the violence on Islamic extremists who hijacked the peaceful protest - in some spots from the first day - and turned it into a civil war. And they are now enabled by the massive Western intervention of NATO.
It's claimed that contrary to the popular mythology, the government forces tried their best to not massacre civilians. I'm leaning that way myself seeing more and more video evidence, and the government's laxness seems to have been a huge factor in how so many cities and even military bases fell into rebel hands. It could well be argued they should have been more violent early on. Hundreds did indeed die, but on both sides, and nearly all at security bases far from the original protests, during attacks on these that eventually succeeded. A lot of detail is given here on how many total tanks (250) and other weapons fell into rebel hands, along with video of them playing with their new toys.
Besides the massive shooting of peaceful protesters, two other crucial claims are addressed - the bombing of protesters by aircraft, and the use of African mercenaries against them. Both are denied, if in a stale and unconvincing manner. Still, it's true - there's no credible evidence for either type of state crime. In fact, despite the huge importance of the charges, none of the these three main ones was ever verified in any way and thus remain, as Goheda pointedly notes, nothing but rumors.
And of course the UN security council resolutions 1970 and 1973, based on these rumors, opened the way to legal, economic, and military action against Libya. This is, of course, highly troubling now that we learn the rumors were all apparently false. More troubling yet is that the simple excuses were used shamelessly and without consequence or reproach, to muscle through a long-desired regime change agenda that will hand all of Libya to those same "armed gangs" and, more importantly, their US-educated, NATO-backed, free-marketeer puppets for plunder in the rebel leadership.
Saturday, June 18, 2011
The Attack on the Peace Drive
June 3, 2011
Last Update June 18
This is post is dedicated to a reported event I've never heard of outside of a Libyan government press conference by Moussa Ibrahim. That alone would cause most people to give up considering it any further. But I'm not most people.
The video in question is on Youtube, entitled Peace drive kidnapping of two women by armed group attacking convoy 30 3 2011. And strangely, after calling it undated, I just now noticed, at the end of the long title, a date! March 30. Oops. The main subject Mr. Ibrahim tried to keep it to was a reported kidnapping (as well as at least one killing) that resulted from a "peace drive" of loyalist civilians, hoping to open talks with the rebels in Benghazi. The accompanying text:
All of the video above is also included in this video I just made based on it, with info, questions, and opinions inserted. (page link)
Further Information
I could find little, using different search word variations. (but then, I didn't even know the date to help narrow things down). I could before find only one reference, dated March 31, to a since-deleted Youtube video of "The Libyan rebels opening fire on a peace caravan of women, children, and the elderly." Url: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtmL60oHXtU. So I did have the date, just couldn't see the video.
At my video posting, I asked for more information, and got some quickly, from Youtube member "Anti-Nazi Hippy"
attack:
youtube.com/watch?v=FtmL60oHXtU
aftermath:
youtube.com/watch?v=RqqR09bXG6A
The attack link is the same dead end I found. But the aftermath video, via user "Rayyisse," works and is interesting (I saved a copy).
It's dated April 7 (stamped later, not necessarily the date it was filmed), and shows Libyan soldiers posing at the scene of a mysterious incident or incidents. Two tour busses are left abandoned, tires flat, windshields shattered, marked with spray-painted Arabic graffiti. Only at the very end is a third bus shown, apparently gutted by fire to boot.
In the middle span is shown quite a number of destroyed or abandoned tanks at the same scene, some just yards away from the busses, others scattered across the desert nearby. It looks like around a dozen. Some are still on fire, or on fire again. Others are charred, seemingly flattened a bit, some with turrets blown off and laying nearby. I thought it looked like a NATO air strike where, one presumes, the tanks came to rescue the besieged caravan only to be bombed for coming too near to rebel positions.
Except ... a couple at least are painted with the rebel/monarchist flag, which the soldiers kick and spit at. Another with a flag on its turret is shown pouring flames. Are these rebel tanks that had come to meet the peace caravan? Managed to kill a few and take some captives before being partly destroyed by the nearby army?
The Attack Video -
Searching for the text, I found this:
And at the same link is included a version with English subtitles, and commentary, added:
I cannot verify if it's the same, but I'd guess so, and made sure to save a copy of each. Off the bat, it's not completely convincing. Perhaps the subtitles version threw me off.
"We want peace," "These rebels are dangerous! Damn them!" "Ooh, here comes the soldiers! These are the Gaddafi soldiers coming to save us!" etc. Possibly genuine, possibly scripted.
It shows the view from one woman's vantage point, as she runs, shrieking, towards a larger group of people milling around a line of at leas six tour busses. The hills here are covered with tiny flowers, not the sandy desert the tanks were filmed in (although it's conceivable the two spots are very close). There is gunfire and light explosions heard, but it sounds like a nearby battle. The other people visible - barely, as the camera flies around - do not seem to be running or taking cover like the camerwoman is. Only she seems so agitated, fearing for her life, and prominently clutching a white cloth of surrender in her right hand as she runs towards the others, who seem much safer a hundred yards away. Along the way, she helps an old man said in the subtitles to be injured. But judging how he easily stands right up when she offers her hand, it seems more like he was just tired. The one with translation has the man off-screen talking to her halfway through saying the government was telling them they were in danger and had to flee. She seemed to already know that, but the others don't really. It's strange.
I have previously done some critiques of what I suspect are fake propaganda videos by Libyan rebels. I may finally have a contender here from the government side. I intend to see about learning more, however, to see if my skepticism is just in overdrive here. I'll report back what I learn and decide, sometime later now. Just this took too long.
---
Update June 18: After explaining how I wasn't going to do any new research, I just did some but will only explain it briefly: The above aftermath video was probably, instead, this, dated (as the video is) April 7, Ajdabiya:
And at about the same time, a better match for the peace drive bus - Sky News, video, 100 miles east of Sirte, March 29:
There is at least one other person besides the camera woman waving a white flag, and a few sort of jogging towards the top of the hill, plus the man telling them to flee (back to the busses, or away from them?). All this suggests if the scene is partially staged, there are a few people at least in on it.
Did they stop and get out upon being attacked, or was it a surprise as many were scattered out on some pit stop? The trucks are there pretty much the whole time the busses are visible. SOrry the volume's a little high - turn your stuff down before starting it. I was trying to just boost the battle and background sounds.
Last Update June 18
This is post is dedicated to a reported event I've never heard of outside of a Libyan government press conference by Moussa Ibrahim. That alone would cause most people to give up considering it any further. But I'm not most people.
The video in question is on Youtube, entitled Peace drive kidnapping of two women by armed group attacking convoy 30 3 2011. And strangely, after calling it undated, I just now noticed, at the end of the long title, a date! March 30. Oops. The main subject Mr. Ibrahim tried to keep it to was a reported kidnapping (as well as at least one killing) that resulted from a "peace drive" of loyalist civilians, hoping to open talks with the rebels in Benghazi. The accompanying text:
Dr Moussa Ibrahim on what happened to the peace caravan 100km east of Sirte, where two Libyan women were kidnapped by armed rebels. This peace drive was called for and organised by the Libyan tribes, not by the government.The Western press was distrustful, and clearly trying hard, right then and there, to spin the news back against the government. After the fact, I have yet to see if anyone wrote anything about it. I was following the news close enough then I'd be surprised if I totally missed it. But then, I missed that date ...
All of the video above is also included in this video I just made based on it, with info, questions, and opinions inserted. (page link)
Further Information
I could find little, using different search word variations. (but then, I didn't even know the date to help narrow things down). I could before find only one reference, dated March 31, to a since-deleted Youtube video of "The Libyan rebels opening fire on a peace caravan of women, children, and the elderly." Url: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtmL60oHXtU. So I did have the date, just couldn't see the video.
At my video posting, I asked for more information, and got some quickly, from Youtube member "Anti-Nazi Hippy"
attack:
youtube.com/watch?v=FtmL60oHXtU
aftermath:
youtube.com/watch?v=RqqR09bXG6A
The attack link is the same dead end I found. But the aftermath video, via user "Rayyisse," works and is interesting (I saved a copy).
It's dated April 7 (stamped later, not necessarily the date it was filmed), and shows Libyan soldiers posing at the scene of a mysterious incident or incidents. Two tour busses are left abandoned, tires flat, windshields shattered, marked with spray-painted Arabic graffiti. Only at the very end is a third bus shown, apparently gutted by fire to boot.
In the middle span is shown quite a number of destroyed or abandoned tanks at the same scene, some just yards away from the busses, others scattered across the desert nearby. It looks like around a dozen. Some are still on fire, or on fire again. Others are charred, seemingly flattened a bit, some with turrets blown off and laying nearby. I thought it looked like a NATO air strike where, one presumes, the tanks came to rescue the besieged caravan only to be bombed for coming too near to rebel positions.
Except ... a couple at least are painted with the rebel/monarchist flag, which the soldiers kick and spit at. Another with a flag on its turret is shown pouring flames. Are these rebel tanks that had come to meet the peace caravan? Managed to kill a few and take some captives before being partly destroyed by the nearby army?
The Attack Video -
Searching for the text, I found this:
Libyans in the west decided to settle the matter with peaceful negotiations with armed rebels from the east. They formed a convoy consisting of hundreds of people, mostly women, children and elderly people. They went to the east of Libya, t...And at that page, an existing posting of what I presume to be the attack video:
And at the same link is included a version with English subtitles, and commentary, added:
I cannot verify if it's the same, but I'd guess so, and made sure to save a copy of each. Off the bat, it's not completely convincing. Perhaps the subtitles version threw me off.
"We want peace," "These rebels are dangerous! Damn them!" "Ooh, here comes the soldiers! These are the Gaddafi soldiers coming to save us!" etc. Possibly genuine, possibly scripted.
It shows the view from one woman's vantage point, as she runs, shrieking, towards a larger group of people milling around a line of at leas six tour busses. The hills here are covered with tiny flowers, not the sandy desert the tanks were filmed in (although it's conceivable the two spots are very close). There is gunfire and light explosions heard, but it sounds like a nearby battle. The other people visible - barely, as the camera flies around - do not seem to be running or taking cover like the camerwoman is. Only she seems so agitated, fearing for her life, and prominently clutching a white cloth of surrender in her right hand as she runs towards the others, who seem much safer a hundred yards away. Along the way, she helps an old man said in the subtitles to be injured. But judging how he easily stands right up when she offers her hand, it seems more like he was just tired. The one with translation has the man off-screen talking to her halfway through saying the government was telling them they were in danger and had to flee. She seemed to already know that, but the others don't really. It's strange.
I have previously done some critiques of what I suspect are fake propaganda videos by Libyan rebels. I may finally have a contender here from the government side. I intend to see about learning more, however, to see if my skepticism is just in overdrive here. I'll report back what I learn and decide, sometime later now. Just this took too long.
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Update June 18: After explaining how I wasn't going to do any new research, I just did some but will only explain it briefly: The above aftermath video was probably, instead, this, dated (as the video is) April 7, Ajdabiya:
Rebel fighters claimed NATO airstrikes blasted their forces Thursday in another apparent mistake ... […]This video shows three busses, not one, but otherwise it's a better match with what's shown.
A rebel commander, Ayman Abdul-Karim, said he saw airstrikes hit tanks and a rebel convoy, which included a passenger bus carrying fighters toward Brega. He and other rebels described dozens killed or wounded, but a precise casualty toll was not immediately known.
And at about the same time, a better match for the peace drive bus - Sky News, video, 100 miles east of Sirte, March 29:
“This is the road to Sirte. We’re about 100 miles from Gaddafi’s home town and the rebels’ advance has been badly blocked by some heavy fighting about five miles down the road. We’ve seen at least three bodies come back, but for the rest, the rebels are simply parked off and waiting for the coalition to do their job for them with air strikes.”
“Fear and bad intelligence paralyze the rebels. The movemement of a coach was enough to cause panic. I saw this bus come across the front line. In it were 30 or 40 young men, fighting age males."How he knew the passenger makeup is unclear, but a dark blue tour bus is shown driving towards the camera. It has an escort of a few pickup trucks, one with a very large gun pointing straight up. Later, standing by the abandoned coach, he said:
"Now, the rebels feared that they might be infiltrators sent by Gaddafi to sow mayhem and chaos behind their lines. The wheels were shot out, and the bus itself has been shot up. But there’s no evidence of blood inside it. What we don’t know is what happened to the young men."And for what it's worth, I blew portions of a couple of nights trying to stabilize that attack video, which is clearly a different scene from the one Sky showed. This is about the best I could do, and better than I meant to. The gunfire sounds realistic, and we have confirmation a dark blue coach, like the five seen here, was peppered with gunshots.
There is at least one other person besides the camera woman waving a white flag, and a few sort of jogging towards the top of the hill, plus the man telling them to flee (back to the busses, or away from them?). All this suggests if the scene is partially staged, there are a few people at least in on it.
Did they stop and get out upon being attacked, or was it a surprise as many were scattered out on some pit stop? The trucks are there pretty much the whole time the busses are visible. SOrry the volume's a little high - turn your stuff down before starting it. I was trying to just boost the battle and background sounds.
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