December 1, 2011
(quite incomplete)
last edits Dec. 28
<< The Sirte Massacres
Here will eventually be gathered the best information on this pivotal episode, the capture and killing of 42-year "dictator" of Libya, Muammar Gaddafi. He was captured alive on the outskierts of Sirte October 20, subjected to certain treatment, and then executed under murky circumstances the same day.
For the time being, the information will be in the comments section below, submitted by readers/contributors and myself as we see fit. The leader's last action's, his capture, abuse, killing, bodily display, and secret burial are all fair game for discussion below.
I invite here especially new contributors.
Dec. 28: Some excellent comments by recent-appearing contributor, anonymous, Tawergha, Felix, Petri, and others. Some fascinating theories are being discussed.
The Site that Asks: Is the "dictator" justifying intervention by killing innocents? Or is someone else doing it for him? (previously The Libyan Civil War: Critical Views)
Sunday, January 1, 2012
213 comments:
Comments welcome. Stay civil and on or near-topic. If you're at all stumped about how to comment, please see this post.
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The first step in analyzing the events would be collecting and cataloging all the rebel videos of the capture. The next step would running the shaky videos through some stabilization program.
ReplyDeleteSome of the videos are HD, but are unusable without stabilization and possibly slowing down. A good demonstration of the difficulties is given by user tawergha in his edited videos of the capture:
Proof of Young Man's Murder By Libyan Rebels During Muammar Qaddafi's Capture
Evidence of Second Man Murdered During Ghaddafi's Capture
This may be useful information on the events leading to the capture.
ReplyDeleteIf I understand this correctly, Libya S.O.S. is citing a television interview by Saif Al Islam Gaddafi. Did Muammar Gaddafi speak on the phone with Americans before his convoy decided to leave Sirte?
Quote: Gaddafi's son confirmed that he informed his father that Americans had contacted him. Adding that he last time contacted his father a few hours before his death, when his father assured him that he had received assurances from Americans during his stay in the city of Sirte, allowing him transition without prosecution or bombing of cities to the south of Libya, but they assassinated him, said the Saif
Saif Al Islam Gaddafi: Americans tried to tempt me to turn against my father
The claim that Qaddafi was promised safe passage makes plenty of sense in view of the Qaddafi capture pictures on the ground. I have yet to find video or pictures showing Qaddafi's convoy attacked on the highway or any other roadway. The vehicles actually shown destroyed looked to be in a parking formation in the middle of fields close to some buildings/ compound walls off the highway.
ReplyDeleteAnd we have Secretary of State Clinton's presence at the time, and allegations he was going to "surrender" to her when killed. If so, that was just as stupid and sucker a thing as making that last cell phone call. That is,if his intent was for personal safety. If it was simply to end the fightingfor the sake of others, it may have really helped.
ReplyDeleteI'm definitely not up on all this, but I can see the mystery pulsing beneath the surface.
I just came accross that according to GlobalPost correspondent Tracey Shelton Gaddafi was sodomized with something like a knife. I can't remember if we had that detail in the other thread.
ReplyDelete"GlobalPost correspondent Tracey Shelton said there is some question as to whether the instrument was a knife from the end of a gun, which Libyans call a Bicketti, or a utilitiy tool known as a Becker Knife and Tool, which is popularly known as a BKT."
But I'm not sure about that, for me it looks more like a stick and I can't see any blood.
Anyhow, it's definitly ugly to go in details here...
I too cannot see what it is, but he falls to his knees right afterwards, so it injured him, I presume. I did mention this in the Gaddafi's dead post, but it's the type of thing that belongs here too, as the new main post on the subject now.
ReplyDeleteAlso, pretty sure I saw a photo of the guy who did it, in handcuffs at a jail. Lost the link. Sorry, this post still sucks, but it's a history project, so no rush.
The alleged sodomy was first reported by Seamus Milne of The Guardian (London) newspaper on Oct 27 2011
ReplyDelete@anonymoous
ReplyDelete(btw it is Seumas)
We read at Global Faultlines The murder of Gaddafi by lynch mob and a dark start to “new” Libya by Bulent GOKAY - Bülent Gökay,Professor of International Relations at Keele University, UK - dated 23 October, beating the GlobalPost revelation by a day:
...it is the US/ NATO –supported “rebel force” – who brutally assaulted, dragged, beaten, tortured, sodomized with a knife and shot Gaddafi amid a jeering crowd, with two bullets to the head and one to the chest...
Strangely, on 1 November, Pakistani site ALAIWAY! Qaddafi Was Sodomized Before Being Killed transforms the text of Gocay to read:
"...brutally assaulted, tortured and murdered Gaddafi with two bullets to the head and one to the chest..." No mention of sodomy there.
Odd that.
Who reported it first is not of great consequence, given that none of those making the "sodomy" claim appear themselves to have been at the scene as eye witnesses. But what is indisputable (as the well publicised visual evidence substantiates), is that the colonel's murder took place in broad daylight, and he was travelling in convoy. Why would this be? Common sense tells us firstly that an "escape" attempt would best be undertaken at night to avoid detection. Secondly, why travel in convoy when an obviously better tactic would be for the vehicles to split up and follow separate "escape" routes. It is reasonable therefor to surmise that the colonel and his entourage were not attempting any "escape bid". It is also reasonable to grant some credibility to the now wellknown and as yet uncontested reports quoting one Danie Odendaal, a contract soldier / mercenary or whatever, who was wounded at the scene of the colonel's capture. He claims to have been part of an independent escort authorised and organised by Nato to give safe passage to Gadaffi for his relocation to southern Libya as part of a negotiated "peace deal". Odendaal says this was in fact a deliberate betrayal by Nato, resulting in the ambush of Gadaffi's convoy and the colonel's subsequent assassination.
ReplyDeleteBTW,the erudite Bulent Gokay, in his claim at Global Faultlines that Gaddafi was "sodomised", does not attribute it to any source. A shortened version of Gokay's article, published a few days later by Public Service Europe omits the sodomy claim altogether. Maybe Gokay is not entirely okay.
ReplyDeleteI realise now that the GlobalPost footage which was somehow acquired by Tracey Shelton was visble to the world on the evening of 20 October of perhaps early morning 21 October in Europe. I think it is some kind of fake, but that's neither here nor there,just my take on things . however,my favourite version of the GP vid is called 10/20 Norway terminates asset Gadaffi after 7/7 Itavia demand letter to Sarkozy and Albert of Monaco The Ustica Disaster angle is interesting.
ReplyDelete@felix – Re: Ustica Disaster
ReplyDeleteOff topic – or not quite as it is also about the attempted assassination of Gaddafi by French fighter jets.
The Noel Grima article in the The Malta Independent on 18 September 2011 – Libyan secret documents said to uncover Ustica tragedy… and how Gaddafi escaped to Malta unscathed claims that confidential documents from the archives of the Libyan secret service were passed on to Human Rights Watch. This may be true. Grima also claims that the story was covered by the Italian media, but she fails to give reference. I tried to find these Italian media reports for the Wikipedia article, but could not find any.
@Caustic Logic: "I ...cannot see what it is, but he falls to his knees right afterwards, so it injured him .." Gunshot to the stomach. (Not the chest, as often misreported)
ReplyDelete@petri
ReplyDeleteconfidential documents...secret service..now in hands of HRW(!)...
a likely story!
@anon
More items to be filed under Limited Hangout here and here regarding the Odendaal/South African story. The Guardian calls him Deon, but he does not appear in the New Age story, only in that from South African Rapport.
Deon Odendaal, a spy, on Saturday spoke from a hospital in North Africa...
Right...
@ All Ustica comments: I knew it rang a bell. Yes, I've heard it was a mishap in an attempt to kill Gaddafi, but the details, like a shot-down Libyan Mig, are new to me. Weird story, almost surely something shady. Otherwise, you guys are out ahead of me there, until I start my broad-sweep of fake Libyan history site. I didn't even suss out what 7/7 referred to here, except some communications from 2008...
ReplyDeleteOn the final attempt that worked, bombing criminal thugs closer and closer within Libya itself after another couple decades of frame-ups, demonization, bombing, sanctions, and terrorist/fundie campaigns in the heartland...
I am downloading the video of the alleged sodomy now. I had seen it before pretty clear, I thought, but now I'm hearing serious doubts from felix and anonymous, so I'll have a closer frame-by-frame look and listen and report back later.
That Shelton wasn't the first to spot it, or that the video wasn't exclusive isn't so surprising. But I'll have to look at these things a bit more before I decide the best way to put it together.
@ Anon: I appreciate the comments, but sadly you're off on each one so far.
ReplyDeleteGokay said there was sodomy, Shelton did the analysis that "confirmed" an existing claim, probably from seeing the same video (if possible?). I don't know why it would be later omitted.
And I watched closer, slowed the video to 25%. I don't see the tool at all really, but possible blood. The audio is confusing, but there is no gunshotuntil several seconds later, a burst in the air. And within a second of the stab glimpse, the leader is suddenly on the ground, being yelled at and his to make him stand up again.
I'm still behind on the finer points of all this, but that part is as I recall it.
@ Felix: This particular video was up on the 20th? I didn't catch the link for that. And by fake, do you mean staged, the whole hiding in a sewer pipe like a rat thing? I tend to agree on that, but it's a hunch and I'm nowhere near ready to make a detailed case...
no visible blood. That's just how the shadow parts of his pants look, unless his knee hinges bleed too with each step. But the handle, green-gray, of what could be a bayonet is visible in the guy's hand. Just to clarify.
DeleteThe first Shelton video is a 20.47 October 20 upload. this page gives the articles as 16.40 and 21.47 (video).
ReplyDeleteFinally, here, 21.38 and 20.38 are quotes. Any idea of time zones?? Comments on the first ref start at 03.53, as if this equates with 21.53.
@Adam – Gaddafi was not "hiding in a sewer pipe like a rat." He was seeking protection from shrapnel, as any soldier or commander would when targeted by an airstrike. I is possible that the convoy stopped at the substation for the specific purpose of using the storm drain as a bomb shelter.
ReplyDelete@ Felix: Okay then. Time zones aside, it was up almost right away, and exclusive. That's probably what Gokay looked at, and Shelton then looked at more closely.
ReplyDelete@Petri: I should've used quotes. Although now that we're here, a rat probably would have plenty good of good reasons to hide as well. The story they offer is possible enough, but all in all I don't buy it. The parked convoy doesn't sit right, and this part is just as possibly staged.
@Felix -- Deon it is. His memoirs should be worth a few pennies if / when they're ever published. According to Odendaal as quoted in reports other than the two you linked, only a handful of S Africans were involved. Odendaal is reportedly a Greek passport holder.
ReplyDeleteVideo of Gaddafi being pulled into ambulance.
ReplyDeleteNEW: Video shows Qaddafi bare-naked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv8vYRdQBNE
Uploaded by Abdorojbani on Dec 21, 2011
@Petri - Video removed owing to "nudity". (allegedly) Stange no other versions of the alleged sodomy scene have emerged after 20 October. As far as I can tell from maps, the sub-station / storm drain is on the way to nowhere.
ReplyDeleteOne thing is for sure: the New Age report of a "South African mercenary force" has no merit whatsoever. It relies only on dubious unnamed "sources" and appears to be an ill-contrived attempt by certain disaffected South Africans to discredit the current government of President Jacob Zuma. Odendaal, quoted in later reports, confirmed that only three or four of the 19-strong supposedly neutral escort allegedly sanctioned by Nato were South Africans. At least one of them was reportedly killed and Odendaal was wounded in the ambush. South African government legislation prohibits the recruitment and deployment abroad of South African mercenaries. It seems odd, very odd, that the Rats allowed the surviving "mercenaries" to go free after the ambush, adding further credence to Odendaal's claim of deception and betrayal on the part of Nato.
ReplyDelete@Petri/Felix
ReplyDeleteHere is another copy of the video where Gaddafifi is pulled into the ambulance, uploaded by chaaben7 on 21/12/2011.
Gaddafi is nearly naked with pants down but it's not possible to see if he already has the gunshot wounds in his head.
This video seems to be slightly later. I think the ambulance is still not driving (look at 0:20). The leader has a first bandage at his stomach, but not at the head. The perspektive makes it impossible to recognize if he's already shot in the head. But he's already under a shroud (!).
The bandage at the head appears in a later video, when the ambulance is probably driving to Misrata. Here the gunshot wounds in the head are clearly visible.
But the published videos still not allow to recognize when he got them.
@ Anonymous
I think you're right about that. This story don't look convincing to me. I guess it's just an attempt to discredit the south african government based on the braggings of some soldiers of fortune.
@Peet73 - Odendaal's account is not so readily dismissed; there were no "braggings of some soldiers of fortune." Odendaal is the only surviving eyewitness directly involved who has so far gone on record. IMO he was not bragging at all but rather complaining bitterly that what he had been led to believe was a Nato-authorised "extraction operation" had turned out to be a "set up" (his own words). What intrigues me is how 19 contract personnel of a private security firm managed to enter Sirte, proceed unimpeded to Gaddafi's defensive position, and assemble there a neutral, armed escort to accompany Gaddafi and his entourage in convoy. This was a time, remember, when Sirte was encircled and under relentless blocade and bombardment. This suggests some kind of truce had been arranged and authorised by Nato, promising free passage to Gaddafi and to the contract security company for the collection, protection and delivery of Gaddafi to a safe location in southern Libya, as stated by Odendaal. Neither Nato nor any other source has yet offered any rebuttal or convincing alternative explanation concerning the participation of a private security escort, how the escort managed to enter and leave Gaddafi's apparently unassailable defensive position, or why the captured members of the convoy escort were almost imediately allowed to go free -- at a time when real or perceived "mercenaries" were otherwise being hunted down and slaughtered by TNC forces.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous
ReplyDeleteIf Odendaals testimony is true it's indeed very murky. But I have problems to belive it - why should the NATO had offered free passage to Gaddafi just at the eve of their total triumph? That would have been in complete contradiction to everything they did and announced before. Let the devil go just when he's cornered? What's the sense behind that and how should it be explained to the public and the allies?
Gaddafi was always "paranoid" and he had good reasons for that. I can't imagine that he suddenly started to trust NATO and walked into such an clumsy trap...
Here's a guy who saw things - Field Commander Leith Mohamed , who appears at 1.25 in this Al Jazeera video, Collecting Libya's arms tough task for NTC , uploaded 31 October.
ReplyDeleteLeith is widely quoted by AFP on the alleged death of Gaddafi:
“He has been captured. He is badly wounded, but he is still breathing,” Mohamed Leith told AFP, adding that he had seen Kadhafi himself and that he was wearing a kaki uniform and a turban.
His body was identified at the field hospital where it was brought in a pick-up truck on Thursday, Dr Abdu Rauf told AFP
Leith also said Moatassim was found dead in Sirte, and described this incident , 25 October"
Over a single hundred people were killed as well as fifty bleeding in a blast of a fuel tank Monday in Sirte, pronounced Leith Mohamed, a commander in chief of a National Transitional Council. “There was a vast blast as well as a vast fire. More than 100 people were killed as well as 50 wounded” , Mohamed said, referring to “dozens of charred bodies” . He pronounced a blast occurred when dozens of people lined up to fill their automobile nearby a tank. – (AFP)
Is this the guy who gets the story out, the spin doctor?
@Felix: They need a new spin doctor if so.
ReplyDelete@ Anon: Indeed on the Greek passport for Odendaal, though it's new to me.
A White South African smoking Greek-made"American Legend" cigarettes could explain how a Libyan rebel loading convoy captives on a truck in Sirte got hold of a pack.
So thanks for that and Merry Christmas both, or whatever it is you do.
:D
@Peet73 - I don't buy the story that Nato and/or TNC forces in Sirte were poised for a "total triumph", as you put it. For several weeks Nato press releases had been announcing G's "imminent" capture or defeat. But For every day that passed without G. being killed or captured, Nato/TNC lost credibility. They needed a quick "victory" to save face. Without luring G into a trap, that "victory" would have meant searching street-by-street, building-by-building, cellar-by cellar while coming under constant sniper fire and facing booby-traps, land mines and IEDs. The state-of-the-art sniper rifles used by G's defensive forces were fitted with silencers and anti-flash devices, making it near impossible to detect the whereabouts of individual snipers. TNC casualties would have reached an unacceptable level. The TNC forces, remember, were untrained, clueless about tactics, and adept only at praising Allah and firing their guns into the air, when not accidentally shooting each other. Against highly trained professional soldiers they would not have stood a hope in hell of killing or capturing G, without taking heavy casualties themselves. What happened in the final hours leading up to and during the supposedly neutral "extraction operation" might be explained by Saif, in the unlikely event he is ever allowed to do so. To date he has not been allowed by his captors to say anything in public; while Odendaal and other alleged participants in the convoy have disappeared far underground. Can't say I blame them for now; but hopefully they might eventually have to guts to present testimony to the ICC, if or when the ICC ever gets its act together.
ReplyDelete@Peet73 - Re your "can't imagine that he suddenly started to trust NATO and walked into such an clumsy trap..." The presence of at least a few contract security men speaking with broad Afrikaner accents could have gone a long way towards convincing G this was indeed a neutral, truce convoy sanctioned by Nato and conducted in broad daylight. This might account also for why he was apparently not wearing a combat helmet and bullet-proof vest. One US commentator interviewed on RT a few days ago claimed the daylight convoy had been flying white truce flags when it was attacked.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous
ReplyDeleteHm. Some of your points are realy not bad. The story may indeed be worth a closer look than I had yet. I'll try to do that soon.
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I hope all contributers, readers and the administrator of this excellent blog enjoy peacefull, relaxing and inspiring christmas days.
Frohe Weihnachten aus Köln!
Car troubles have interrupted all time-consuming holiday plans, so...
ReplyDeleteI meant to say, Peet, I totally dig your argument against this trap construct. But I also dig the idea of it, and remain quite undecided. I like Anon's explanation of why a trap was needed, to the point of making it an offer G couldn't refuse, all stops pulled, anything possible to put the leader at ease.
"The TNC forces, remember, were untrained, clueless about tactics, and adept only at praising Allah and firing their guns into the air, when not accidentally shooting each other. "
I wish the ruse hadn't worked. I could've stood to see more of their failure. But the downside to that is the more frustrated they get, well... they also excel at cruelty once they finally get hold of you. We could have seen a good 25% reduction at least in summary executions, torture, eye-gouging, beheading, etc. if everyone had just surrendered to the West's favorites back in March or so.
With that... Merry Christmas again, now that it actually is, in GMT and all time zones east! A day on which the mythical saviour almost certainly was not born! (oops, sorry, it slipped)
Adam , re Mohamed Leith (or Layth or Laith, being Lion in Arabic) aka محمد ليث
ReplyDeleteSomething which worries me is the story emanating from Leith about the fuel tank explosion in Sirte a few days after Muammar Gaddafi was allegedly killed there.
Fuel depot blast in Libya’s Sirte kills 100: commander (AFP)
“There was an enormous explosion and a huge fire. More than 100 people were killed and 50 others wounded” in Monday’s blast, a National Transitional Council (NTC) commander, Leith Mohammed, told AFP.
He said the scene was “a heart wrenching spectacle with dozens of charred bodies.”
“We are still unable to put out the fire,” caused by a spark from a nearby electricity generator, said Mohammed.
The accidental explosion came as a crowd of people waited near the fuel tank to fill up their cars...An AFP correspondent said the tragedy took place near Sirte airport, some 30 kilometres (18 miles) south of the Mediterranean city, hometown and last bastion of Libya’s slain veteran leader Kadhafi.
A radio station and two large fuel reservoirs stand nearby, said the correspondent, who saw at least 29 vehicles blackened by huge flames that shot into the sky, burnt shoes, melted plastic jerrycans and shreds of clothing.
“The explosion happened yesterday (Monday) at around noon,” said Ali Faraj who helped evacuate the wounded. “It was very strong. I live 25 kilometres away and I heard it..Omran Ajelli, a doctor at Ibn Sina hospital in Sirte, said he treated 26 people, five of them “in critical state” with severe burns, and three bodies were brought in, with the other casualties apparently taken elsewhere."
A strange story. It doesn't quite add up for me. Plus "charred bodies". Some YouTube video of the fire here...from 1.07 and also more extensively in this Euronews footage .
100 is an enormous death toll. And how does the NTC commander know it was caused by a spark? I detect something fishy there.
The Daily Telegraph briefly reported the NTC, with a couple of photos of charred bodiesbeing taken away by stretcher. Photos by Youssef Boudlal. What do you think?
Indeed, a bizarre story. I suspect it should be added to the Massacres list, with a question mark. It's on my to-do list.
ReplyDeleteThe video confirms a very large fire.
A related video on the side, al A'an, Oct. 28:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzA50vznHjA
New to me. Not gas station victims I presume, but maybe from the Gaddafi convoy? Who's the sewn-together guy, and who did the sewing?
100 dead allegedly and it is single sourced. Hardly reported anywhere. Would people be anywhere near burning fuel tanks for photo shoots?
ReplyDeleteThe Guardian,25 October reported it thus;
9.31am: An explosion in Sirte has underlined the continuing instability in Libya. Reuters reports:
More than 50 people were killed when two fuel tanks exploded in the Libyan city of Sirte on Monday, local residents said.
The explosion was caused by a short circuit, they said, and happened at midday on Monday. The two tanks were still on fire after dark.
Strange sew-up. Post Mortem?
PS Leith Mohamed seems to make no internet impact either before or after the several momentous communications of late October 2011.
ReplyDeleteDid you catch the Bouckaert video, Qaddafi Death Circumstances from HRW on 22 October, with some shots I hadn't seen before?
http://www.taz.de/!80431/
DeleteOffiziellen Angaben der Revolutionskämpfer zufolge wurde Gaddafi lebend aufgegriffen, als er aus Sirte zu fliehen versuchte.
"Gaddafi befand sich in einem Jeep, der unter Feuer genommen wurde", berichtet Mohamed Leith, Kommandeur für Misurata-Süd.
I checked out the video, took some screen grabs, plus one in a deriviative Global Post video re-posted by 1VSMRK (and thus a vulnerable link)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBpMsMP4Cms&feature=related
On the fuel depot explosion, I've found several photos, all attributed to a name by Boudlal. I don't see cars "lined up," just parked around like at the convoy site. It's quite possible these victims were arranged there, burnt blank, and then the place was torched to explain it as an accident. There are wounded mentioned, however...
I'm working on a post for this, plus several other new things I've been finding to add to others. You see things off to the side all the time, trying to grab and put them where they belong better than I did before.
A staged fire would be a perfect way of disposing of a 100 bodies of "African mercenaries" / niggers or other massacre victims.
ReplyDeleteThe Euronews footage is very convincing, especially with the "life was better under Gaddafi witness." I am still not convinced – this could be old war footage from somewhere else, maybe Brega.
I tried looking for the fuel tanks on Google Earth, could not find them. The video shows the tanks are located right at the security perimeter of some large desert compound: the Sirte Airport maybe or the bombed-out SA-missile facility some 5km further south.
The distance to Qasr Abu Hadi (Gaddafi's birthplace) and the airport is more like 18km, not 18 miles. I do not know if the AFP reference to 30 km is the distance to the airport or to the accident site. At 30km we find the southern dessert gate of Sirte, hardly anything else.
The fuel tank explosion was reported by The Telegraph:
ReplyDeleteLibya: fuel depot blast kills in Sirte kills 100
The story is accompanied by two images attributed to Reuters.
The Telegraph video may show the horizon on the right at 0:41. Is it the Mediterranean sea in the background, or is it just the sky seen through a fence?
@ Petri
ReplyDeleteI think it is a fence at 0.41 in the Euronews video. Agree about the unreliability of the location. (Car registration from town 7,district 16. (Town 5 = Tripoli) but means nothing more to me)
The military and civilian (SRX) airports seem to have the same coordinates. No sign of fuel tanks. The story doesn't hold.
To return to the topic, i.e. the killing and capture of Colonel Gaddafi: according to the London mass circulation daily Telegraph newspaper quoting unnamed intelligence sources on 3 November 2011, a total of 50 private soldiers, including 19 South Africans, travelled to Libya on instructions to "smuggle" G from Sirte over the border to Niger. The initial report on 24 October by the mass circulation South African Afrikaans language weekly Rapport quoting eyewitness Danie (also known as Deon)Odendaal, does not use the word "smuggle". The term used (translated from Afrikaans) is "extraction operation". A follow-up item by Rapport on 31 October, described how the mercenaries/contract security travelled in column by road from Tripoli to G's precise location in Sirte without once being stopped or questioned at roadblocks or security checkpoints. This would indicate that prior arrangements had been made for safe passage. According to Odendaal, the mercenaries/contractors believed Nato "wanted Gaddafi out of Libya." According to the same report, the column of vehicles first came under Nato air attack directly outside "the building" in which G was hiding. About 20 minutes after the air attack ceased, the commanders of the "extraction operation" decided to make a run for it -- straight into the arms of the waiting rebel Misrata brigade.
ReplyDeleteIn the wave of jubiliant Nato/American/NTC triumphalism that followed, little is made of the fact that, from the grave, Colonel Gaddafi accomplished a major political and diplomatic victory over Nato. From his grave he was and still is saying: "You see, I told you so. These people (Nato and their surrogates) are bullies and liars. They can not be trusted." There was a sudden turnabout in the international correlation of diplomatic forces that had previously been duped into supporting UN resolution 1973 to "protect civilians". From this point onwards Nato and the UN would have great difficulty in trying to drum up public support for regime change under the guise of "humanitarian interventions" in Iran, Syria, Somalia and elsewhere.
The Daily Telegraph article of 3 Nov 2011, for what it's worth, is here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8865403/South-African-intelligence-investigates-role-of-British-company-in-Col-Gaddafis-attempt-to-flee-Sirte.html
PS: Perhaps the most astonishing part of Odendaal's revelations in Rapport, if they are true, is that the rebel forces regarded the convoy escort amicably as "allies". All the surviving contract soldiers were freed by the rebels immediately after the ambush.
ReplyDeleteSome one quoted a NATO source as saying that spy planes spotted 75 vehicles assembling in Sirte in the early hours of October 20th. I have always wondered how Gaddafi could "assemble" 75 brand new pickups in the little bombed out enclave of Sirte the Libyan Army was still holding. He must have had one huge underground garage.
ReplyDeleteWith the new S.A. information it is more likely the cars were brought to Sirte on October 20th.
From the Telegraph, and thanks Anonymous:
ReplyDelete[Odendaal] said his firm was approached by a South African firm to provide support and insurance to the Libyan group but refused.
“These guys were going against UN sanctions and there is no way we would support that,” he said.
So he went along anyway as a tack-on? They weren't prepared or trained well enough, had odd rebel acquiescence getting there, a poor formation, a NATO hit right from the start... how many warning flags can you miss? I suspect We're missing something here.
Chris Greyling, of the of the Pan-African Security Association, said the consequences for anyone found to have been involved would be dire.
“If it turns out that a major, established firm was involved in mercenary activities, supporting an outlawed government in defiance of Nato then it could be devastating for them,” he said.
Not in this case, I would guess. They get a free pass, no explanation, and an increased profile as a company that can apparently bend the rules, to the empire's favor, and in the big boy club now.
If they don't screw it up by complaining the wrong way...
@Petri - Yes, that's what Odendaal also says in the Rapport story of 31 October. He says further that he and others were apprehensive about being provided in Tripoli with ordinary road vehicles and not armoured cars or APCs; but they proceeded anyway, having received an assurance it was a peace mission, not a combat mission.
ReplyDelete@CausticLogic - Can't quite figure out what's your point, especially since you've misrepresented the Telegraph as quoting Odendaal. The unnamed source you're mistakenly referring to is in fact stated clearly in the Telegraph report as "A source in the private security sector". Not Odendaal. The Telegraph report does not rely on any direct interview with or statement by Odendaal.
@CausticLogic - You may be concluding incorrectly that only one private security company was involved. According to Odendaal in the original Rapport interview, an unspecified number of international private security companies were involved in recruiting candidates for the "extraction operation". The creditable evidence, what there is of it, is scant enough without muddying the waters with incorrect assumptions and avoidable misreadings.
ReplyDeleteOops, that was a different guy speaking. I didn't read carefully enough. The man speaking had detailed knowledge of how it went down, but didn't necessarily go. But if what he says is true, there were serious red flags that should've led to the mission's cancellation. Somy imagination runs away with extra intrigue-what if they knew they were delivering Gaddafi, just not exactly how the rebels would receive him? Such speculation is way beyond my knowledge of this particular issue.
ReplyDeleteI gathered different groups were involved, just thought (wrongly) Odeadaal's company declined, despite him going himself (as a tack-on). Water muddying happens sometimes. Then a person has it pointed out, settles down, and the mud starts drifting back to the bottom.
From 1VSMRK channel. The title says it all:
ReplyDeleteNew Video of Gaddafi Convoy in Sirte moments after attack by NATO 20.10.11
Uploaded by 1VSMRK on Dec 26, 2011
I found that video at another site as well as on 1VSMRK's. I've been trying to figure out where exactly the convoy was in relation to the drainage tunnels and above all, why the convoy was not on the highway. I can't figure out a route for so many vehicles from Gaddafi's starting point in District 2 to where the convoy was attacked. There appear to be too many obstacles in the way off-highway.
ReplyDeleteI've been dawdling over this issue toolong, and perhaps a bit longer. But I need to get a grip on the scene and make a map to helpout me and Tawergha at least.
ReplyDeleteThe new video must add information we didn't have before (I'm not 100% sure what we had). I saved the video, just in case.
Well, the drainage/capture location was here. The Google map image fits with the pictures from the two rebel videos of Ghaddafi's capture and aftermath. At 31°11'43.95"N 16°31'22.18"E. Supposedly the strike occured 200 meters to the southeast of the capture location on the right side of the road.
ReplyDeleteOk. The location is correct. In the new video a series of power transmission towers can be seen to the left of the wall in front of which the burned out vehicles are located. The same towers can be identified on the google map to the immediate south east of the location, right next to the structure. So here's the question: How and why did the vehicles get there? If they did not use the highway, what route could they have possibly taken from District 2? If they did use the highway, why would they have gotten off the highway to this location? Mind you, there have been no pictures of any of the vehicles struck by NATO on the highway.
ReplyDeleteBBC presented a map of the route taken by the convoy. They claim it traveled 3.6km west on the coastal highway, past the roundabout to the second north-south road. I wonder if they really knew or if this is just BBC speculation. It would be sensible to stay as far away from the rebel front lines as possible, thus taking the west most route.
ReplyDeleteIt is also possible (pure speculation) that they turned south at the roundabout and took the main road south. They may have then turned on the unpaved east-west road just south of the substation. The cars are however piled up on the northern side of the substation, not to the south where the dirt road is.
This is what T. West of Afrisynergy told me in a message: "The use of nerve gas was an account given by the son of Libya's Defense Minister who was killed when Gaddafi's convoy was attacked. The son survived and woke up in Misrata. He gave the account of a nerve gas bomb being used after a concussion bomb overturned the vehicle Gaddafi was in. The last thing he remembered was the different type of bomb that produced smoke but didn't blow up anything." T. West also says that the sleeping Ghaddafi and the others were placed by special forces or such at the drainage location.
ReplyDeleteSo, putting all the pieces together, the following scenario makes the most sense: Ghaddafi was promised safe passage. 75 vehicles were brought to him in District 2. They left in the morning during daylight, came down the highway and were told to turn off the highway at some point to park and wait. While they were waiting they were struck by nerve gas and then by the guided bombs. An unconscious Ghaddafi and a few of his men, including the young man with the leg cast were brought to the drainage location and laid there. When they woke up, the Misrata rebels were there, collected Ghaddafi, shot the young man who had just woken up and killed the others who were still unconscious. In this context Ghaddafi's question finally makes sense: "Why are you doing this, don't you know right from wrong?" Ghaddafi had expected to be given safe passage and in that moment finally figured out that he, once again, was betrayed. So they shot him. This, by the way, also explains Mutassim's initial unconsciousness when he was loaded onto a truck and brought to the apartment where they later murdered him.
None accepts the official version that the deposed Libyan leader was shot in crossfire as he was taken alive from the scene by ambulance -
Deleteany more than they bothered even to register the NATO bromide
that the air attack that halted Gaddafi's escape was ordered because his convoy threatened the civilian population. But what did happen?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/details-of-gaddafis-ignominious-end-shrouded-in-confusion-and-shame/story-e6frg6so-1226174479193
By the way. Did anybody identify any bomb craters anywhere around the vehicles? I'm no weapons expert, but wouldn't bombs leave such craters? Unless, of course, the vehicles were hit by helicopter fire instead. That would make much more sense than a drone and allow for the various activities described above.
ReplyDelete@Tawergha – I do not expect there to be a bomb anywhere. This is the type of damage you would get from strafing by small caliber depleted uranium rounds. It does not take much to start a fire and uranium ignites on impact.
ReplyDeleteAs I've said, the area and vehicles we've seen do not look bombed, despite the purported drone strike. Hellfire? I don'tknow if they get real small now-One car door is holed from the side that I noticed... strafing, helicopters, all possible as far as I know
ReplyDeleteThe nerve gas angle - that is fascinating and it sticks with me. Gaddafi did seem dazed, didn't he? Others seemed exceptionally docile, drained, seated, or unconscious. The new video shows an odd victim left among the dead but covered. He can't get up or move his left side, but his right arm works fine and he's alert. Broken back, or just waking up from a gas-induced sleep?
Very interesting ...
Nerve gas? Seventy-five vehicles? Hmmm. We seem to be clutching at straws here. How about straight-forward concussion to account for the symptoms described? As for the number of convoy/escort vehicles, I wouldn't rely too much on an unnamed Nato source. Nor would I rely too much on the BBC regarding the exact route followed by the vehicles. But since everyone here seems to be speculating, I might as well do some speculation myself. What if the vehicles, in their headlong rush to escape, split up and followed separate routes at the roundabout that Petri cites? Who is to say that Abdullah al-Senussi, Libya's former intelligence chief and Colonel Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam were not among those who managed to escape that way? They were captured a month later in the desert about 200 miles south of Tripoli. Their notional importance as primary witnesses to the final hours on Colonel Gaddafi's life and any secret "truce" arrangements negotiated with Nato, might account for why both Saif al-Islam Gaddafi and Gaddafi's intelligence chief Abdullah al-Senussi are now being held by the NTC under conditions of maximum security, without access to lawyers (in violation of both international and local laws), and of course without being allowed to speak to the Press.
ReplyDeleteOk, let's look at the map. So supposedly Ghaddafi and his guys who were just hit by an airstrike and who had at least one ambulatory-disabled person with them (the young man with the gypsum cast), ran past several structures which would have given them shelter, back into the direction of Sirte, found the drainage pipes and went over or under (through the drainage pipes) the highway. All this over a distance of a quarter kilometer as the bird flies. Or did they walk on the highway? Run under the tree canopy on the west bank of the highway? Or maybe across an open field past a sheltering structure under trees to get to the drainage location? All while suffering from concussions? Or being disoriented at the least? Did the others find time to carry the young man with the leg cast this distance even though they must've been figuring on further air strikes? How is that supposed to work?
ReplyDeleteI'm looking for sources on that unusual bombing. Found nothing yet but the AfriSynergy video:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYfg4KHxKGA
I'm speculating mostly how true it is Jabr's son described this type of attack. If he did, it's another question whether it's true or an elaborate sory he was ...forced to tell?
West says "this is the account as given by the son of the Libyan defense minister and provided by a Russian contact." Could be. I would be speculating to accept it from that. But here's the details, since I've watched it:
This version has no white flag, no surrender and betrayal; this was a mission of opposition escape on one's own terms. When the convoy was hit in this account, it sounds like it was moving. A few cars were straight bombed, killing everyone, and Gaddafi's car flipped when the one in front was hit. That sounds more like driving than parked. I didn't hear concussion bomb mentioned.
Exact location unstated, but they stopped, apparently, to collect themselves when the white smoke bomb was dropped. Some awoke early and played in the play at the pipes, but this son stayed out cold 'til after they arrived at Misrata.
So that's the version, more or less, we should add to the offeredexplanations, for comparison with the evidence.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous
FYI: You can use the post option "name/URL" to type a more personalized screen name of your chosing, to set you apart from other anonymous posters, if there are any.
True we should consider all sources with some or even much skepticism. That Seif and Abdullah might've been in the same convoy ... possible, but man what a target they'd have offered. Best tosplit that up if so. They'd be witnesses, like Jabr's son. That he's supposedly talking with Russians talking to T. West or a friend might be unlikely, going against that story a bit. But maybe they were more lax because they figured "hey, he slept through it all."
Until we know better, it's a possibility.
@Tawergha: The distance is not great-probably about the same distance as from one end of the convoy to the other. But it's not, as you point, an ideal spot to hide.
But it's not bad as far as being less than obvious. I'd be checking buildings first if I was the rebels. How long did it take them to shine some lights down those drainage pipes up the road? Not long, I bet. A lucky guess?
@Anonymous – or would you object if I call you by your first name?
ReplyDeleteI am not referring to an "unnamed Nato source" but to an official NATO statement from October 20th. I am reproducing the text here:
NATO strike in Sirte area 20 October 2011
NAPLES – Now that NATO has had the opportunity to conduct a post strike assessment of yesterday’s strike, we are able to provide a more comprehensive picture of events.
At approximately 08h30 local time (GMT+2) on Thursday 20 October 2011, NATO aircraft struck 11 pro-Qadhafi military vehicles which were part of a larger group of approximately 75 vehicles maneuvering in the vicinity of Sirte. These armed vehicles were leaving Sirte at high speed and were attempting to force their way around the outskirts of the city. The vehicles were carrying a substantial amount of weapons and ammunition posing a significant threat to the local civilian population.
The convoy was engaged by a NATO aircraft to reduce the threat. Initially, only one vehicle was destroyed, which disrupted the convoy and resulted in many vehicles dispersing and changing direction.
After the disruption, a group of approximately 20 vehicles continued at great speed to proceed in a southerly direction, due west of Sirte, and continuing to pose a significant threat. NATO engaged these vehicles with another air asset. The post strike assessment revealed that approximately 10 pro-Qadhafi vehicles were destroyed or damaged.
At the time of the strike, NATO did not know that Qadhafi was in the convoy. NATO’s intervention was conducted solely to reduce the threat towards the civilian population, as required to do under our UN mandate. As a matter of policy, NATO does not target individuals.
We later learned from open sources and Allied intelligence that Qadhafi was in the convoy and that the strike likely contributed to his capture.
NATO does not divulge specific information on national assets involved in operations.
...continued
...continued
ReplyDeleteI also read a NATO source saying that "NATO air surveillance had detected 175 vehicles assembling in Sirte" earlier on Thursday morning. I cannot find the exact source, but if I remember correctly this was said to have happened 2 or 3 hours earlier, i.e. at 05:30 or 06:30.
I found one source for this information, it is Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard, the commander of NATO operations in Libya, speaking at a video conference from his headquarters in Naples.
I did not remember the number of vehicles correctly. Bouchard claims there were originally 175; the same number was later stated as the number of loyalist killed.
Here is the full text from the al Jazeera Live Blog.
Mon, 24 Oct 2011, 16:47 GMT+3 - Libya
Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard, the commander of NATO operations, says that NATO "had no idea that Gaddafi was on board" the convoy that was hit by airstrikes as it fled Sirte.
"We saw a convoy and we had no idea that Gaddafi was on board. In fact, I was surprised that Gadhafi was in the Sirte area," the Canadian military officer said on Monday during a video conference from his headquarters in Naples, Italy.
He said that NATO air surveillance had detected 175 vehicles assembling in Sirte on Thursday morning, and that the alliance believed that they would be used to allow Gaddafi loyalists to flee the city as it fell to NTC forces.
"The vehicles started to make their way out, and one of the outcomes of this was the concern [that forces] from Sirte would join with the remnants of forces from Bani Walid and move into another desert area," Bouchard said.
"We went on from there to first of all attempt up to break up the convoy, to break it into manageable chunks and to slow it down (and) that's what we did.''
"We brought to bear our weapons systems on the convoy twice, and we achieved the aim of stopping the convoy," Bouchard said, adding that the presence of rockets and machine guns in some vehicles made them a legitimate target.
@Tawergha – ...continued.
ReplyDeleteI still say the damage to the convoy is consistent with an aerial attack. For comparison look at images of the Highway of Death in Kuwait at the end of the First Gulf War in 1991. There are plenty of charred bodies but no bomb craters.
@ Petri Krohn What's very interesting about the vehicles from the Highway of Death is that they are not at all as burned out as those of the Ghaddafi convoy. Now as to Bouchard's statement: Where is that first vehicle NATO struck? What happened to the rest of the 75 (or 175) vehicles that made up the convoy? The video does not show anywhere that amount of vehicles. How did this convoy maneuver at high speeds off the highway? If they maneuvered on the highway, where are the vehicles that were struck on the highway? How could 75 or 175 vehicles assemble in the small area left in District 2 without being fired upon if the rebels had surrounded District 2 and kept firing?
ReplyDeleteOne small detail in the NATO statement:
ReplyDeleteThe PDF file on the NATO site has this sentence:
These armed vehicles were leaving Sirte at high speed and were attempting to force their way around the outskirts of the city.
In most on-line versions the text has been mutated to this format:
These armed vehicles were leaving Sirte at high speed...
The text I pasted above is linked to NATO statement, but because of the difficulties in copy-pasting from PDF I picked up the mutated text from this FOX News version.
Did NATO correct its initial statement, or did the media somehow add one more word of war propaganda?
The NATO PDF file has a timestamp of October 21, 2011 13.25.23. I do not know if this has been edited after first released. The document was created using Microsoft PowerPoint, so I guess the time is Windows style local time.
The Fox News is dated 9:56 am ET October 21, 2011. This is after the NATO timestamp.
Here's the official Narrative in diagram form, courtesy of the National Post.Try not to laugh. (note also the strong emphasis on human bones and in the anniversary issue of NP)
ReplyDeleteThat poster is a hoot. Even red Gaddafi, all little plastic army men, driving around in tanks. Shot in the head, he crawls in the pipe... idiots.
ReplyDeleteOn Bouchard (scum). As far as I can see, few if any of these trucks had guns mounted on them at all. Maybe I missed the ones that did.
Second, to Mr. Bouchard (scum): Did you guys, with your surveillance, happen to notice -DID YOU NOTICE - large numbers of armed vehicles parked around Sirte for over a month, daily firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas, killing and injuring thousands of men, women, and young children, while preventing deliveries of all supplies (food, water, medicine) and thus enforcing an effective life embargo?
Of course you did... the same people were handing you your targeting info, so you could help kill and injure thousands more while saying truthfully your "intelligence" said it was all military and mercenary stuff you were hitting.
But when you saw some trucks the NTC forces won't vouch for, that MIGHT have been armed, and MIGHT have decided to shoot a civilian or two, man you guys were all over it. Pat on the fucking back for NATO humanitarian intervention!
Sorry for the typo:
ReplyDeleteThe NATO statement says:
These vehicles were leaving Sirte at high speed...
The word armed is not in the statement.
This may be related:
ReplyDeleteSaif al islam Column NATO Attack20th Oct رتل سيف القذافى
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucw4o7dfty4
Uploaded by LIBYAUNITED1 on Dec 27, 2011
"Saif Gaddafi convoy bombed by coalition aircraft in the Valley of Zamzam"
This is what Libya S.O.S. says on the issue
ReplyDeleteWhen #NATO was bombing a convoy of Saif al-Islam #Gaddafi, NATO was sent to the location which they didnt know well. The place is called the Valley of Zamzam it is located between the Bani Walid and Sirte. NATO bombs martyred a number of Saif al-Islam companions, and he was wounded in the hand and his back.
NATO rebels and jackals on the ground, than approached the brave wounded Mujahideens and dismembered their bodies.
This seems to be the original on Facebook in Arabic.
Here is another copy of the video, uploaded by QuatchiCanada on Dec 27, 2011:
***
This suggests that Saif al Islam Gaddafi may have left Sirte with the convoy on October 20th. It is also possible, that Saif al Islam had been in Bani Walid and left when rebels took over the town a few days earlier.
Can anyone find a location for this Wadi / Valley of Zamzam?
Arabic language Wikipedia has an article for Wadi Zamzam (وادى زمزم).
ReplyDeletear.wikipedia.org/wiki/وادي زمزم
The place can be found on Wikimapia here. The location is about half way between Sirte and Bani Walid.
Here is the Zangetna discussion on the video.
The video shows trees and vegetation consistent with the wadi. I do not think it is possible to pinpoint a more accurate location. There is a village in Zamzam between the two branches of the wadi. The Peoples Committee is located here.
ReplyDeleteExcellent stuff, coordinated movements possibly... but there is a better spot for details on that. This is comment #74 here...
ReplyDelete:)
@ Petri the attack on Saief at valley ZamZam is so far as I know this one :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/29/us-libya-idUSTRE79F1FK20111029
his motorcade was hit by a NATO air strike as it left Bani Walid on October 19,
FreeBenghazi Libya.elHurra
Bodyguard: Saif "nervous & confused." Saif escaped though NATO hit his convoy as it left BaniWalid, Oct19 #Libya reuters.com/article/2011/1…
29 Oct
http://www.eliteukforces.info/uk-military-news/2510011-srr-hunt-gaddafi-clan.php
They are beleived to now be actively engaged in finding Saif al-Islam,
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/279089/Special-Forces-in-hunt-for-last-of-the-Gaddafi-clan
I apologise at forehand for my malformed Enghlish, but I like to place some questions and links in the group about the capture of Moamer and Abu Bakr Yunis :
ReplyDeletethe first question : were there foreign boots on the ground in Sirte?
http://www.pakalertpress.com/2011/10/25/israeli-intelligence-sources-nato-killed-qaddafi/
and kept the building under surveillance for two weeks, surrounded by US and British forces.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27264
As the Associated Press reported, Clinton declared “in unusually blunt terms that the United States would like to see former dictator Muammar Gaddafi dead.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/25/us/politics/before-qaddafis-death-us-debated-his-future.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1325183963-Ag7rlCJR91aU4d0LF8gtNw
Published: October monday 24, 2011 /Last Wednesday evening[19 oct], the White House :The killing of Colonel Qaddafi, they said, was one of the three scenarios considered last Wednesday.
question 2 : at which place abu bakr yunis died?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.firstpost.com/topic/person/abu-bakr-video-eRt5kL2ahBw-17181-1.html
Capture of Abu-Bakr Yunis Jabr's Sons and Gaddafi's Driver
Abu Bakr Yunis' Sons have been captured, beaten very badly along Gaddafi's driver, while Abu Bakr Yunis , the father has been found dead near the explosion of the convoy where Gaddafi escaped alive until he ran into the Army of Benghazi Men and wanted to bring him alive to the NTC but the Misrata brigade ran into Gaddafi and beat him. In the Video, The 2 boys are the sons of Abu Bakir Yunis, as you can see that they have taken a very bad beating and the revolutionaries ( most likely from Misrata ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNyEWZjtT98
Abu-Bakr Yunis Jabr 0.55 sewer pipes
They apparently shot him[Moamer Khadafi] in both legs to prevent his escape and informed (rebel rats) of his whereabouts, knowing they would kill him...."
http://warisacrime.org/content/libya-another-lost-nato-war
How could Moamer Khadafi, shot in both legs after been captured at the convoy and Abu Bakr Yunis,of whom is said he died in the convoy, get themselves to the sewer pipes?
question 3 : the missing hours
ReplyDeletemissing hourts : convoy hit first time 8.30 - "arrest" Moamer Khadafi about 2..00 local time/see timeline
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2051361/GADDAFI-DEAD-VIDEO-Dictator-begs-life-summary-execution.html
question4 about which is already talked in the comments : where exactly is the convoy been attacked and how far is this from the sewer pipes?
ReplyDeletehttp://matei.org/ithink/2011/10/20/gaddafi-killed-as-libyan-dictators-last-holdout-sirt-falls-gaddafis-last-chances-are-counted-map-video-pictures/
KILLING LOCATION
31°11'38.61"N 16°31'23.69"E, If you look at a picture of the convoy ambush in the background you see a white high building which is at the coordinates: 31°11'13.91"N 16°31'28.26"E; the lower part is on the left of the photo, then the trigger point is from the north, looking south, exploring the surroundings I found this compound with near the pylons of the electricity grid.
http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=+31%C2%B011%2743.60%22N,++16%C2%B031%2717.43%22E&aq=&sll=31.195182,16.522064&sspn=0.002859,0.005681&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&ll=31.195437,16.521619&spn=0.001429,0.00284&t=h&z=19
Trapped
Two miles (3 km) west of Sirte, there were three clusters of cars and pick-up trucks mounted with machine guns burnt out, smashed and smouldering -- one group of 11 vehicles next to an electricity substation, three cars in a field and another cluster of seven pick-ups in another field.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print/760032.aspx
question 5 : how is it possible that the car of Moamer of whom it is said he was in car 20 and his son in car 21 remains as brand new, while all the other cars and 95 people were blasted and destroyed?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2052577/Gaddafi-dead-Dictators-getaway-car-paraded-revolutionary-forces.html
Gaddafi's 'getaway car' is paraded by revolutionary forces
There were 95 bodies in all, many of them black Africans.
Less than half were burned alive in the vehicles. Others appeared to have been killed, some of them cut in two,
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print/760032.aspx
At the sewer pipes more bodies were found :
Fallen electricity cables partially covered the entrance to the pipes and the bodies of three men, apparently Qaddafi bodyguards lay at the entrance to one end, one in shorts probably due to a bandaged wound on his leg.
Four more bodies lay at the other end of the pipes. All black men, one had his brains blown out, another man had been decapitated, his dreadlocked head lying beside his torso.
I must apologise again : this time for the links : they seem so dead. They work though.In google or by selecting .
@ Anon: well-formed questions showing real thought. Thanks. For my part, I'll try to address anything I can.
ReplyDeleteQ1: I've heard that Debka says a lot of things that don't pan out. Some of them do, however. Boots were there in Libya for sure, advising at least, observing for sure, surrounding Muammar... possibly.
Q2: Nothing yet.
Q3:I didn't know the time span was that wide. How far away were rebel forces and why the big gap? That's long enough for nerve gas to wear off, and to move/drive a bunch of cars and arrange a scene.
Q4: Could be almost anywhere. Possibly parked where they are, driving just down that road, driving on another road. I wonder if any videos show enough road to see tire marks or other features suggesting a strike there. I doubt we could rule it in by that, and we surely couldn't rule it out.
Q5: The SUV does have a dented driver's side, could be consistent with just flipping over. That's if it's even the car they say it is.
The dead bodies doesn't seem like a question. Clearly no need for summary executions, beheadings, unusual executions that can be said to look like battle or bombing injuries. The black men interest me, haven't seen or heard of those yet. No photos I suppose.
For future reference, I'll show you a broken html link you can use to enclose urls.
If it works: a href="http://..." blue text.
You fix it by putting angle brackets just before the , then a closing tag after the blue text,
@ Adam. We should be able to figure out the local times from the shadows on the two videos depicting the capture of Ghaddafi and the aftermath. I tried to, but don't really know how to. The highway should give us an base angle to work from. At the drainage site the highway runs almost exactly north-south at 353.87 degrees (Google Earth). The degrees of the angles of the shadows of the people milling about in the two videos can be ascertained in relation to the edge of the highway as the edge of highway and the shadows are clearly visible in either video. So we need to figure out at what angle the shadows were supposed to be cast by the sun at what time of the day on October 20, 2011 in that particular location.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
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ReplyDelete@Anonymous2 – India, I suppose – Thanks you for pointing out the Reuters article October 22th. This seems like the most reliable account of the events. Very few Western sites host this story, most copies I found on-line are from Africa, India and other parts of Asia. Here is a link to the original available on Reuters India:
ReplyDeleteGaddafi caught like "rat" in a drain, humiliated and shot
By Tim Gaynor and Taha Zargoun
SIRTE, Libya | Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:21am IST
There is another, slightly shorter version of the story on the Reuters US site, dated Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:06pm EDT
Reuters confirms the number of cars: a convoy of six dozen (72) vehicles. However they only count 21 destroyed pickups in three groups.
The story contradicts what NATO is saying:
Government fighter Ahmed al-Masalati from Misrata said he was there. He said Gaddafi's convoy escaped at 6:30 am and went around a roundabout and came under fire from government forces.
"They were trapped in these positions," he said, pointing to the field. "At 8:15 a NATO jet came in, a Mirage. It shot at the group of 11 cars then made another pass and shot at other group at the north end who were held up in seven cars.
It may be, that the convoy was stopped not by NTC forces, but by fire from a US Predator drone. NATO claimed it hit on the first vehicle with a missile "disrupting the convoy."
More important is that NATO says the convoy only left Sirte at 08:30, Reuters says it happened two hours earlier. NATO also says that after the disruption, "a group of approximately 20 vehicles continued at great speed to proceed in a southerly direction, due west of Sirte."
Reuters indicates the cars had not been moving for over an hour.
This is confirmed by a Gaddafi witness:
That account was confirmed by a Gaddafi prisoner on Friday, Jibril Abu Shnaf, who was captured not far from the convoy.
"I was cooking for the other guys, when all of a sudden they came in and said 'come on, we're leaving'. I got in a civilian car and joined the end of the convoy. We tried to escape along the coast road. But we came under heavy fire, so we tried another way," he told Reuters while in custody in the town of Sirte.
When the air strike hit the convoy had already stopped "but I don't know why, I was just following the others", he said. "Then the only thing I saw was dead bodies all around, dust and debris. It went dark," Shnaf said.
continued...
...continued
ReplyDeleteHow ever long elapsed between the 20 vehicles proceeding at great speed in a southerly direction and the Mirage airstrike, one thing does not add up: why were the loyalist sitting in their cars?
The first thing that happens when a military convoy comes to a halt is for people to dismount and disperse. Anyone sitting in a standing vehicle under hostile airspace becomes a sitting duck.
Again quoting from the Reuters article:
Two miles (3 km) west of Sirte, there were three clusters of cars and pick-up trucks mounted with machine guns burnt out, smashed and smouldering -- one group of 11 vehicles next to an electricity substation, three cars in a field and another cluster of seven pick-ups in another field.
They had clearly been hit by a force far beyond anything the motley army the former rebels has assembled during eight months of revolt to overthrow the once feared leader.
Inside some of the trucks still in their seats sat the charred skeletal remains of drivers and passengers killed instantly by the strike. Other bodies lay mutilated and contorted, strewn across the grass.
There were 95 bodies in all, many of them black Africans.
Less than half were burned alive in the vehicles. Others appeared to have been killed, some of them cut in two, by heavy calibre guns from either an aircraft or from ground fire. Others appeared to have been killed by fragmentation wounds, possibly from exploding rockets and ammunition in the pick-ups.
It may be that the convoy stopped because of some rebel roadblock on the road further ahead. The fact that people were in their cars is also an indication that they were not engaged in a firefight with the rebels at the time of the airstrike.
***
The story has this additional detail:
Four more bodies lay at the other end of the pipes. All black men, one had his brains blown out, another man had been decapitated, his dreadlocked head lying beside his torso.
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ReplyDeleteSorry about the above deleted comments, but I had it wrong there. Ok. I think I have it now. As can be seen in this image I aligned the edge out-crop of the drainage tunnels in the picture from the video with the highway as that edge runs parallel. Although the picture is not an overhead picture as is the google earth picture, the approximation should be good enough. The video was made by a rebel facing South. Running a line through one of the shadows cast (east to west) by one of the rebels gives us an approximate angle of 244.47 degrees. 15 degrees equates one hour (360/24=15) 244.47/15= 16.298, that is, 16:30 hours. So the capture of Ghaddafi must've taken place at approximately 4:30 pm on October 20, 2011. Hope I got that right.
ReplyDeleteHmmm... on second thought, I don't think that is right at all. Anybody can help here?
ReplyDeleteWorth re-reading(not for the truth) the Guardian Live (disinformation) blog from 20 October. (that's the newspaper with a circulation of 250,000 whose readership were out on the streets in their millions against Iraq but in the main couldn't wait to bomb Gaddafi out of existence....go figure)
ReplyDelete..about five carloads of loyalists tried to flee the enclave down the coastal highway but were killed by revolutionaries...
In an email, the...Misrata Military Council... to whom?? Why not reproduce it....perhaps it went something like: Dear Mr Rusbridger, your bloodthirsy readers might be interested to know....
No wonder the postal system is in decline with revolutionaries turning to e-mail.
AJA/ Al Jazeera reports....are we really to believe any of this?
@Anonymous (S.A.)
ReplyDeleteThe Reuters story from October 29 seems to confirm the "mercenaries" story:
"We have some information that there is a mercenary group trying to help him [Saif] to move to a different country... Some of them are South Africans allegedly."
This may however just me a reflection of unsubstantiated rumors in the South African press:
A South African newspaper, in an unconfirmed report, said South African mercenaries were working to fly him out.
Evidently Saif was fleeing from Bani Walid, so he would not be in the Gaddafi convoy in Sirte. It may be that the operation was coordinated; the decision to abandon Bani Walid without a fight may be related to a decision by Muammar to leave Sirte and meet up with Saif in Wadi Zamzam.
Given the dates, there is the theoretical possibility that the same extraction team picked up Saif from Bani Walid, then headed to Sirte on the 20th to pick up Muammar.
@Tawergha – Looking at the videos I would say the time is between 1 and 2 in the afternoon, just like NATO sources are saying. It could not have been very much later as the videos started coming out almost immediately.
ReplyDeleteIt is almost impossible to get a clear view of shadows from the shaky videos. To see anything one would have to extract individual frames with ffmpeg or a similar program.
Here is one video with clear shadows, originally by Global Post, now uploaded by 1VSMRK on Oct 21, 2011
At 3:26 the camera points straight down. You can see (or you could if you extracted the individual frames) that the shadows are almost parallel to the road – i.e. the sun is in the south.
Your analysis seems to be wrong because you assume the fallen electricity cables are parallel to the road. In fact they are perpendicular.
***
I have collected some videos of the capture and murder of Muammar Gaddafi on this playlist:
Death of Muammar Gaddafi
It is totally disorganized and has multiple copies of the same material. We should have a post dedicated to cataloging and and analyzing these videos. Se far there is nothing in the video evidence section. What I would like to see is a full list of all videos from the capture and murder site, with information on their original uploader.
It did not work.
ReplyDeleteYou fix it by putting angle brackets just before the a, and after the " , and then a closing tag after the blue text, /a inside angle brackets.
Okay... @Tawergha:
I do it the old fashioned way, a compass image in Photoshop. 353 sounds about right. I don't have the video up ATM and Your graphic just confuses me too much.
Your method of comparing shadows relative to the road is sound. But you can't do straight ratio math on it, I think because it's a parabolic curve with differing rates of angle (azimuth) change, slowing around noon. You use a solar position calculator on a website, usually in reverse - you get the date and location info in, guess a time, check the azimuth it gives, adjust to fit. NOAA has a good one you can access at different sites like this.
That's if you want to wing it yourself. If not, tomorrow I'll see about looking at the video, approximating the shadow offset and getting a time range (always a range, hopefully narrow). It can be done from still or video. If shadows are visible, they are. Little edge details and such don't matter, just pick the best indicator you see. Everything vertical is a sundial, some just do it better.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@ Adam. My graphic is confusing me too :). Oh, well. As to putting links in the comment text. Best is to download Alleycode It's free, automates the process and works fine on Windows 7.
ReplyDelete@Petri :
ReplyDelete“It was about two months ago. We were in a place called the Zimzim valley—26 people were killed, my people.
a href="http://http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/30/in-his-first-interview-saif-al-islam-says-he-has-not-been-given-access-to-a-lawyer.html..." blue text.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/30/in-his-first-interview-saif-al-islam-says-he-has-not-been-given-access-to-a-lawyer.html
lol. angle brackets (can I type even one < without it thinking I'm typing code?) And blue text is whatever words people will click for the link. We may as well hit 100 comments or more, so try another test. It's awesome when it works.
ReplyDeleteI bet I could show you the bracket for the other end now, that comes after the "
ReplyDelete>
. and , keys. :)
Saif's first interview! Worth a read but I will sleep instead. Best examined in any detail in comments here.
ReplyDeletealso be sure there's only one http: in there. Between the quotes should be exactly as in the browser bar.
ReplyDelete(This here is the original Anon). @Petri re cataloging and analyzing videos: that would be a useful exercise. Apart from the available videos, however, I suggest a main key to unravelling the circumstances surrounding this war crime would be the radio telelphone and/or cellphone and/or satellite phone or any other communication records. Access to those is probably not going to happen easily; the military records would have been destroyed by now and/or placed under the highest classification of secrecy. Nato is not going to admit readily that it committed a war crime, if any.
ReplyDeleteConsider the situation in Sirte in the three weeks period leading up to the war crime on the date that Colonel Gaddafi was killed. For about two to three weeks prior to the war crime, the military situation in Sirte was at stalemate. The Rats had taken heavy casualties and could not complete their advance on Gaddafi's position. It is not unusual for negotiations of one kind or another to commence when a situation of military stalemate is reached.
It is clear the "extraction operation" and the assembly of convoy vehicles in the initial stages were conducted openly without any attempt to hide the fact. If safe passage had been negotiated and granted to the loyalists with the oversight of a neutral escort, then those negotiations would have been conducted via a channel or channels of communication. It seems unlikely that cellphone connectivity was possible in Sirte and its environs.
Can anyone see from any of the videos whether any of the vehicles were fitted with radio antennae? (Which might provide a clue as to what type of communications equipment was being used). If the vehicles were fitted with Nato-compatible radios tuned to a Nato radio frequency, then this would support the theory of a negotiated truce. I would not rule out a possibility that at least some of the vehicles were deliberately torched to destroy evidence of any such Nato equipment in the vehicles, which might have proved the extraction operation was with Nato's knowledge and approval. If, on the other hand, satelite phones were in use, then connectivity would have been through a commercial service provider and records might still be in intact somewhere. If the spooks haven't got hold of them in the meantime.
another damage that seems to have hit the convoy and after that to Moamer Khadafi :
ReplyDeletehe is shown dazed and wounded
http://news.yahoo.com/gaddafi-caught-rat-drain-humiliated-152312056.html
http://www.youtube.com/user/AfriSynergy#p/u/0/eYfg4KHxKGA
Breaking News NATO Use Nerve Gas
Gaddafi toxicology tests "would have revealed traces of fentanyl, carfentanil and halothane, according to" an anonymous doctor at his autopsy.
http://warisacrime.org/content/libya-another-lost-nato-war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOQv0me8VY4&skipcontrinter=1
blood on leaders body : 0.45
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111024/gaddafi-sodomized-video-gaddafi-sodomy
frame by frame (GRAPHIC)
then the mystery of the black people :
ReplyDelete1 group has been complete demolished,
while another was quickly released :
and some of the South Africans with him reported killed, injured and captured
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/wonga-coup-mercenaries-fixed-gaddafis-doomed-last-flight-6255407.html
There were 95 bodies in all, many of them black Africans.
Less than half were burned alive in the vehicles. Others appeared to have been killed, some of them cut in two,
Four more bodies lay at the other end of the pipes. All black men, one had his brains blown out, another man had been decapitated, his dreadlocked head lying beside his torso.
http://reason.com/blog/2011/10/20/gaddafi-snuff-footage
handcuffed black person @0.43
But some of the ones taken after the Sirte bombing were spirited away and even transported abroad for medical treatment.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/wonga-coup-mercenaries-fixed-gaddafis-doomed-last-flight-6255407.html
about communication : this was done by [satelite] telephone , but there also has been negotiations :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2168813
Aisha phones to her father
Investigative journalist Wayne Madsen’s sources said Gaddafi was told to surrender to the al-Qaeda rebels besieging Sirte before morning prayers at 5 am, but that it was decided to surrender after the sun was well up in the sky so the white flags would be clearly visible.
There have been some reports that a truce and a surrender by Qaddafi and his forces was worked out between some rebel leaders and Gaddafi’s entourage through the auspices of the Qaddadfa (the tribe to which Gaddafi belonged) tribal leaders in Sirte.
http://libyasos.blogspot.com/2011/12/it-was-operation-to-eliminate-libyan.html
Another story about the events :
ReplyDeletea convoy of 75 vehicles in preparation for a move towards Wadi Jarif, 25 miles away.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8843684/Gaddafis-final-hours-Nato-and-the-SAS-helped-rebels-drive-hunted-leader-into-endgame-in-a-desert-drain.html
British military sources have told The Sunday Telegraph that small teams of SAS soldiers on the ground in Sirte, armed but under strict orders not to get involved, had warned them throughout the siege to be alert to the fleeing of loyalists.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8843684/Gaddafis-final-hours-Nato-and-the-SAS-helped-rebels-drive-hunted-leader-into-endgame-in-a-desert-drain.html
Unknown to the rebels, the convoy had not escaped the surveillance of Nato.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8840104/Col-Gaddafi-killed-no-mercy-for-a-merciless-tyrant.html
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2011/10/on-gaddafis-dead-party.html
A senior defence source has told The Sunday Telegraph that at this point the SAS urged the NTC leaders to move their troops to exits points across the city and close their stranglehold.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8843684/Gaddafis-final-hours-Nato-and-the-SAS-helped-rebels-drive-hunted-leader-into-endgame-in-a-desert-drain.html
After the Hellfire missile struck its target, the convoy changed direction, possibly hoping to avoid a further strike, before heading west again. It had begun to fracture into several different groups of vehicles.
The French jets were also given permission to join the attack.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8843684/Gaddafis-final-hours-Nato-and-the-SAS-helped-rebels-drive-hunted-leader-into-endgame-in-a-desert-drain.html
By now a group of 20 vehicles in the convoy had reached a point around three miles west of the city. The shattered streets had been left behind, and the convoy had halted next to a walled electricity sub station, in arid farmland dotted with breeze block compounds and trees.
Just then, the French pilot began his bombing run, seconds later releasing two 500lb GBU-12 laser-guided bombs, into the centre of the convoy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8843684/Gaddafis-final-hours-Nato-and-the-SAS-helped-rebels-drive-hunted-leader-into-endgame-in-a-desert-drain.html
As members of the al Watan brigade from Misurata approached the smouldering cars, they had no suspicion their former leader was close by.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8840104/Col-Gaddafi-killed-no-mercy-for-a-merciless-tyrant.html
4.16/ they were forced inside pipes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyTOONuqMKk&feature=youtu.be
He and a handful of others fled north around 200 yards down the main road and sheltered in the drain. [so he only ran away to play hide and seek]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8840104/Col-Gaddafi-killed-no-mercy-for-a-merciless-tyrant.html
remaining questions :
ReplyDeleteboots present at capture place?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dy1dsO-jKd0&skipcontrinter=1
0.55 qatari or nato soldier?
http://libyasos.blogspot.com/2011/12/putin-presented-his-version-of-how.html
what happened in all the missing hours :
convoy where Gaddafi escaped alive until he ran into the Army of Benghazi Men and wanted to bring him alive to the NTC but the Misrata brigade ran into Gaddafi and beat him
http://www.firstpost.com/topic/person/abu-bakr-video-eRt5kL2ahBw-17181-1.html
which party has wounded and/or killed :
But he added as images showed gaping wounds to both temples: "There was another bullet that went in and out of his head."
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3887266/Dont-you-know-right-from-wrong.html
At the time of his capture, Gaddafi was already wounded with gunshots to his leg and to his back, Bakeer said.
http://english.sina.com/world/p/2011/1020/407015.html
where the people in the convoy spread with bomb with nerve gaz and where took the killing/capture place ?
http://allafrica.com/stories/201110210094.html
One of Gaddafi's sons, Mo'tassim, who had been hiding with his father, is also dead, Libya's interim government information minister told Reuters.
http://www.vipmusicrd.net/baja%20videos/motassim-gaddafi-the-moment-of-capture-oct-20-2011-wuOnpOWftMCXxek.html
mutaseem, moment of capture
http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16093300
As for Mutassim there is a wound in the head & a break in the skull /five bullets in the back and one in the neck."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2ZhiAU43nk&feature=share
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qtAslQNdbw
http://www.youtube.com/user/zaqura1001?feature=watch#p/u/49/5oDBNevID4c
DOU
http://www.youtube.com/user/zaqura1001?feature=watch#p/u/48/7q_spFfCfEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSifmcBFPlA
Abu Bakr Younis Jabr
"I was with Gaddafi and Abu Bakr Younis Jabr and about four volunteer soldiers." Daou said
the DNA tests are extremely quickly performed in Libiya :
felix said... What do you make of that doctor who allegedly performed DNA tests of Colonel Gaddafi, Dr Ibrahim Tika - ،إبراهيم تيكا has no other internet presence as far as I can see. Another non-existent person? He must be a pretty skilled pathologist to have allegedly performed a post-mortem, reported on 21 October. Which lab carried out the DNA tests? (answer, probably no lab, ditto P-M)
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2011/10/on-gaddafis-dead-party.html
@Petri :
ReplyDeletevid bombing @ Zam Zam
http://libyaagainstsuperpowermedia.com/2011/12/28/libya-the-video-of-the-convoy-seif-el-islam-gaddafi-bombed-by-nato-planes-in-wadi-zamzam-december-28-2011/
@Anon: "If, on the other hand, satelite phones were in use, then connectivity would have been through a commercial service provider and records might still be in intact somewhere. If the spooks haven't got hold of them in the meantime."
ReplyDeleteWell if they didn't think of it before, now they will. Great job!
(kidding)
I haven't noticed an antenna yet, but then I haven't even seen mounted guns yet. I'll need to really look sometime.
I'll look at the sundial time tonight. Didn't have time today.
out of interest, there is a a video of the immediate aftermath of a rocket attack on a vehicle here (uploaded CpRommell, 18 October)
ReplyDeleteI messed with screen captures a bit, but there are few if any good sundials here. The capture video, earliest, has two men with good shadows running by the road. But the uneven ground miffs it, making their shadows point in different directions.
ReplyDeleteI'd say only that both are early afternoon, maybe an hour apart. Anywhere from 1-4 pm I'd buy.
That's in case I don't get around to more work on that. I don't know how important it is to be precise about this aspect.
On strike evidence, the new video shows a truck at 3:09 with a tailgate suggesting something detonated after landing in its bed. That's for one.
ReplyDelete@ anonymous whichever: Thanks for the urls, formatted or not. Copy and paste still works fine, and these are always good, if nothing else, to make this a place people can find great links.
The other anon commenting above has refered to "the mystery of the (dead) black people" at the crime scene. I would suggest the racial dimension be disregarded. There is no "mystery". Anyone who's ever been to Libya will know that it's a multiracially diverse country. Libyans come in all sizes, shapes and colours. There are many black Libyans. Media emphasis on the so-called "black African mercenaries" is a clumsy attempt to suggest that Colonal Gaddafi could only obtain loyalty and support by buying it from foreign mercenaries. Which is a load of crap.
ReplyDeleteSometimes it's well worth noting, as wherever they come from, rebels just loooove to kill black men (tho especially foreign or hardcore loyalist ones) and leave them to rot, while taking lighter-skinned people alive far more often to integrate into the new semi-racially-cleansed Libya.
ReplyDeleteHere, we know who did it, so it doesn't tell us anything new, just helps strengthen the known pattern to illuminate the cases that are considered murky when they shouldn't be.
Especially if the four black victims are lumped together, it helps show how they like to segregate their slaughter operations, something I've seen around...
CausticLogic -- TV news and other visuals have shown black faces among the rebel forces. Your race-based thesis is unconvincing.
ReplyDelete@Petri - re "Given the dates, there is the theoretical possibility that the same extraction team picked up Saif from Bani Walid, then headed to Sirte on the 20th to pick up Muammar."
ReplyDeleteAccording to eyewitness Odendaal in the Afrikaans language Rapport interview, an unspecified number of the assembled escort vehicles had already started leaving Col Gaddafi's position during the night, i.e. well before dawn, when the first Nato air attack was launched on the colonel's position in Sirte. Whether or not the departed vehicles had anything to do with extracting Saif is open to speculation.
It's reasonable to assume that Colonel Gaddafi's closest confidantes and advisors were with him at what was in effect the command post of the Libyan Army at its last defensive position. Among his closest advisors would almost certainly have been intelligence minister Abdullah al-Senussi, who was only captured a month later. This begs a question: why, as far as we know, were no other high-level figures killed or captured at the same time as the colonel? It seems safe to assume they escaped or were given safe passage during the night, under a notional truce or negotiated ceasefire agreeement during the night, if not later during the chaotic circumstances that followed at dawn. I would not be surprised if Colonel Gaddafi, knowing he would be the primary focus of Nato attention, elected to leave last, after his closest confidantes and military advisors had already left during the night.
Anonymous if it wasn't race- based they would not have wiped out Tawergha. Not only that they wouldn't have killed black libyan soldiers and called them mecarnies.They would try to cover up the crimes and make it look like they have support from the black libyans
ReplyDelete@ Other Anonymous above: the three-months siege of Misrata by loyalist forces from March to May was carried out by Libyan army units based partly in the town of Tawergha, which has a mainly black community. The Rats accuse them of collaborating with the loyalists, and complicit in the siege of Misrata. The people of Tawergha are hated not necessarily because they're black but because they allegedly "collaborated" with the loyalists.
ReplyDeleteBTW we're going off topic. I suggest STFU unless there's something relevant to submit about the capture and killing of Col., Gaddafi at Sirte.
@ Anon: "CausticLogic -- TV news and other visuals have shown black faces among the rebel forces. Your race-based thesis is unconvincing."
ReplyDeleteI know there are black rebels. They know there are black Libyans who are their friends. But those who are their enemies or even just neutral can always be fuel for the mercenary rumors if dead and unidentified. Pointing down at a corpse "Gaddafi fighter." Many times we've seen it.
Tawergha was probably a mix - tactical resentment plus racial hate.
To clear up misunderstanding and move on, not to convince anyone. We are off-topic in an already bloated discussion thread.
I discourage (but won't ban) use of "anonymous" for posting. Easy screen names: "Bob5" "J" "Slaughterjaws" etc.
ReplyDelete@ Anon who said "I would not be surprised if Colonel Gaddafi, knowing he would be the primary focus of Nato attention, elected to leave last, after his closest confidantes and military advisors had already left during the night."
Very good thought. I suspect Seif was in Bani Walid, but Abdullah perhaps not, just a presumption from his escaping instead of being caught, like Seif. This idea could also explain it.
@anon 1/ I become angry how you argue about the thousands black people who has been disappeared and/or killed.
ReplyDeleteThe Qatar army who had 5000 ppl on Libiyans soil exist for the most of private companies, rented from many countries.
Also is it well known that Sudan had his people inside :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i68B-sdr41E
Sudan Bashirs help to rebels
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/libya-leader-thanks-sudan-for-weapons-that-helped-former-rebels-oust-gadhafi-1.397764
@ anon who said "the three-months siege of Misrata by loyalist forces from March to May was carried out by Libyan army units based partly in the town of Tawergha, which has a mainly black community. The Rats accuse them of collaborating with the loyalists, and complicit in the siege of Misrata. The people of Tawergha are hated not necessarily because they're black but because they allegedly "collaborated" with the loyalists".
ReplyDeletethank you for correcting me anyway i also agree with caustic logic and anon about Colonel Gaddafi leaving last makes sense it would allow the others to escape and continue the fight maybe Moussa Ibrahim was in this group.
@anon 1 : also you can wonder about the huge massgraves in Sirte , they just have discovered another one.
ReplyDeleteWhile the army just had 150 people :
who were all these people who has been killed in Sirte ?
http://eccleza.net/2011/10/13/black-libyans-make-their-stand-in-sirte-and-bani-walid/
Black Libyans make their stand in Sirte and Bani Walid
In Sirte, loyalist fighters were led by Muatassim, who initially commanded about 350 men, Dao said. Many fled and toward the end, the fighting force diminished to about 150, said Dao, dressed in navy blue pajamas.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/25/gaddafi-dead-final-weeks_n_1030040.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=FV27wyucgEA
572 buried sirte massacre
http://www.facebook.com/hands.off.libya/posts/297779066921277
400 faces
I want give my name , but see so difficult things ID /URL/what URL you mean?
ReplyDeleteBy the way : it is me : hurriya
hurriya @caustic :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/25/gaddafi-dead-final-weeks_n_1030040.html
Dao said Gadhafi fled his residential compound in Tripoli around Aug. 18 or 19, just before revolutionary forces swept into the city. After the capital's fall, Dao said Gadhafi headed directly to Sirte, accompanied by Muatassim. Gadhafi's former heir apparent, Seif al-Islam, sought refuge in Bani Walid, another loyalist stronghold, Dao said.
Dao joined Gadhafi in Sirte a week later, while Libya's former intelligence chief, Abdullah al-Senoussi, shuttled between Sirte and the southern city of Sabha, the third remaining pro-Gadhafi bastion at the time
One Anon: "STFU"
ReplyDeleteAnother Anon: "I become angry"
To the one anon: I have no exact rules on civility, but that (even if it wasn't the exact cause of anger) was ... less than desirable. Please be more civil than that.
Any further discussion on rebel racism, and there is a lot of nuance to work out, some oversimplification on both/all sides, is best taken to a post dedicated to that subject, like this one.
@ Hurriya: Well then, welcome! I have a comment instructions post coming up, will be in the sidebar above "recent comments" shortly. HTML tag tricks, and how to enter a name. It's worth it.
@sam1: Former anonymous. Thanks, that totally helps!
ReplyDeleteStill nothing to add on the capture and execution of the courageous Col. Gaddafi.
So i'll double-up with a direct link to the new comment tips post, in this thread (the first that spurred its creation). It's also listed above "recent comments"in the side-bar.
@CausticLogic - re "I suspect Seif was in Bani Walid, but Abdullah perhaps not, just a presumption from his escaping instead of being caught, like Seif."
ReplyDeleteYou are confused. Abdullah did not escape. He was captured in the desert about 200 kms south of Tripoli one month after the Sirte debacle. He was captured at more or less the same time and in roughly the same vicinity as Seif. This has been widely reported and is as yet uncontested. What has not been widely reported, in fact not reported at all, is the treatment that he and Seif are currently being subjected to. It is safe to assume that energetic attempts are currently being made to "turn" them psychologically through the usual brainwashing/indoctrination techniques in preparation of the prisoners for a show trial.
I doubt if any surviving, high-level, non-Nato/NTC would know better than intelligence chief Abdullah what exactly transpired in the events leading up to and including the capture and killing of Col., Gaddafi. What matters now is whether Col., Gaddafi's intelligence chief is ideologically committed enough and psychologically strong enough to withstand attempts to "turn" him and/or to get him to shut about the precise facts and matters, including especially whether or not negotiations had been conducted between the main belligerents concerning the apparent ceasefire or truce arrangements allowing Gaddafi and his high command to leave Sirte and travel to the Chad border under protection of a neutral escort, and who exactly violated the terms of cease-fire if any. Worst case scenario, if Abdullah is not "turned": he will "commit suicide" or die of a "heart attack" or something similar before he is allowed to testify in open court. Perhaps this is where our main focus of attention should be right now, instead of continually going off topic.
Separately, it would be helpful to reduce all the off-topic bloat that has set in, by moving all the off-topic stuff to a new topic thread somewhere. It would be helpful also to provide some clear guidance on the coding for usernames, links, etc (which at the moment and for some reason seem to be incompatible with my own browser).
Having viewed the nightmarish globalpost.com "exclusive" video of the alleged "sodomy" of Colonel Gaddafi, it seems to me this was not an act of "sodomy" as such, but a clumsy and brutal search of the colonel's rectum cavity to establish if anything was hidden there. Of strategic interest to the Nato Rats would have been such hidden items as secret encryption codes, maps, etc. Never the less, it was clearly and indisputably an inhumane act and a war crime by any other name.
ReplyDeleteWe could also talk about the people around Colonel Gaddafi. On libya S.O.S there is a video posted on November 14 2011 he talks about how Gaddafi was beaten amd sodomized andthen killed but what i found interesting was that they mentioned therebels around him where wearing qatari army uniforms so it's very possible that some of those rebels around him were from qatar.It's known that Qatar had troops on the ground. Now it seems that were also involved in the killing of Gaddafi as well. I just found it very interesting but if i made any mistakes feel free to correct me.
ReplyDeletehttp://libyasos.blogspot.com/2011/11/rape-of-libya.html
@still anon: Cavity search? I can't rule that out, but it would be a very crude effort. His pants were still on for one, and a bayonet is not likely to give an accurate reading of what's in there. No flashlight, no gloved hand.
ReplyDeleteI suspect the stabber was trying to do what the others were -hurt the hated leader. "Sodomy" implies slightly different things, whereas this is knife torture, a stab just to cause pain, that happened to target the rectum as a nice soft and private spot to maximize the effect. It probably hurt like hell, but he took it like a man and didn't even seem to complain.
@Sam1:I can't confirm or deny the Qatari uniforms. I take Libya S.O.S. reports with at least one grain of salt. I don't know what their uniforms look like, and who might wear them aside from Qataris. I've seen a video too that picks on attacker for his light skin, saying it was proof of Euro-NATO soldiers in that gang. But my hunch is these were all rebel thugs, just massively enabled by the foreigners.
@CausticLogic - We seem to have viewed different or differing videos. The one I viewed has freeze-frames showing very clearly that the victim was naked from the waist down. A rat is probing Col., Gaddafi's rectum with what appears to be a stick. These freeze-frames are at http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111024/gaddafi-sodomized-video-gaddafi-sodomy
ReplyDeleteMaximum pain would have been from the gunshot wound to the upper abdomen. Any army medic or paramedic will tell you a gunshot to the abdomen, while not necessarily being immediately fatal, is probably the most painful place to be shot. The location of the stomach wound, seen clearly in other videos, is in the exact centre of the upper abdomen. This suggests either a very accurate marksman if the shot was fired from a distance or, more probably, a deliberate shot at close range to inflict maximum pain while not necessarily causing instant death.
Have you looked at the link you provided? Is it coming up differently on my screen than on yours somehow?
ReplyDeleteI've looked at it and it's as I've described above. The link was posted a few days ago by the Other Anonymous aka Hurriya. Maybe he/she can confirm it's okay on his/her browser as well?
ReplyDeletePS: Sorry, my mistake. Having now taken a closer look on a much bigger screen, I see that I'm wrong about the "naked from the waist" part. But from the way the stick appears to be held quite "delicately" by the rat wielding it, it looks more like a probing motion than a stabbing motion. Whatever. It's still a war crime.
ReplyDeleteThere is a collection of video of the murder of Muammar Gaddafi posted on the Libya S.O.S. site today:
ReplyDeleteSirte 20.10.2011. [150+ isn't for human beings] It was an operation to eliminate the Libyan leader (III)
@Caustic Logic – re “take with a grain of salt anything that SOS Libya says.” For my part, I don’t believe anything ANYBODY says about the capture and killing of Colonel Gaddafi. I don’t believe anything reported by AP, AFP, Reuters, Al Jazeera and every other section of the corrupt mainstream media that was embedded with the NTC throughout the war and to this day. I don’t believe Human Rights Watch which started all this shit in the first place, with its totally false and unfounded claim that 1,200 opposition prisoners were massacred by the loyalists at Abu Salim. I won’t believe anything until Nato explains how 175 “escape” vehicles could assemble openly in a free-fire zone without an agreed truce having been arranged. I won’t believe anything until Thuraya satellite phone corporation releases records proving there was no communication between Colonel Gaddafi and Nato concerning a negotiated truce granting the loyalist high command safe passage out of Sirte and out of the country. I won’t believe anything Vladimir Putin says about the convoy being attacked by “commandos who were not supposed to be there”, until he releases Russian surveillance satellite images of the area. I won’t believe anything until mercenary recruiter Sarah Penfold emerges from hiding and proves she had nothing to do with recruiting 50 mercenaries/private soldiers for an extraction operation in Libya. I won’t believe anything until Hart Security explains why it indicted a South African newspaper from publishing anything about that company’s alleged involvement. I won’t believe anything said by the UN, the African Union and the Arab League -- they were all complicit in one way or another even when it became painfully clear they had been duped by the “protection of civilians” fairy tale. I won’t believe anything until there’s an independent forensic and criminal investigation of the circumstances under which Colonel Gaddafi was tortured and executed. And especially I won’t believe NTC spokesman Ibrahim Betamal, as interviewed by GlobalPost on 21 October 2011, when Betamal asserted: "He (Gaddafi) was shot by one of his own snipers. He died from these wounds. They killed him to protect secrets.”
ReplyDeleteThe GlobalPost and other videos are notable for the fact that no weapons whatsoever are to be seen lying close to or in the vicinity of the bodies of those individuals killed in the convoy. This strengthens the hypothesis that it was an unarmed and prearranged truce convoy sanctioned by Nato. It would otherwise have been suicidal for the loyalists to attempt breaking through the rebel encirclement of Sirte, while US/Nato surveillance drones and US space satellites continually monitored movements on the ground. If the loyalist high command was motivated by any suicidal impulse, they would more than likely have remained in the loyalist enclave and fought to the last man, taking with them in the process a good number of rat hooligans.
ReplyDeleteThe only alleged loyalist weapon in the video evidence is a 9mm pistol that can be seen several times being waved about by one of the rats in the "sodomy" video. Apparently the same weapon is again shown in a later GlobalPost video, accompanied by a commentary quoting a rebel to the effect that the weapon had been siezed from a Gaddafi bodyguard who had orders to shoot Gaddafi if Gaddafi was captured. I suspect from a fragment that can be seen in the "sodomy" video footage that this is the same weapon that was used by a rebel to shoot Colonel Gaddafi in the stomach.
It would be useful if anyone here knows how to retrieve the Twitter feed of the morning of 20 October, which SOS Libya says contained numerous reports of white truce flags appearing in Sirte. I don't know how to retrieve that Twitter feed, if SOS Libya is indeed correct and not just propagandising, as it is sometimes prone to do.
PS - The latter GlobalPost video (let's call it the "drainpipe" video), rat rebels interviewed by James Foley are quoted in translated English sub-titles as saying Colonel Gaddafi's last words were: "Why are you doing this? What have I done to you?" I would suggest the actual context and true meaning of those words are: "What have have I done to you THAT BREAKS THE AGREED TRUCE CONDITIONS?" (My emphasis).
ReplyDeletePPS - In furtherance of the "unarmed convoy" hypothesis: I would suggest that the mercenary/contract security personnel were recruited not for their fighting abilities as such but rather for their experience as drivers and mechanics in long-range motorised operations, as would have been necessary for the long desert journey from Sirte to the Niger border. Such experience would certainly have been true at least of the South African contingent whose members would have been veterans of long-range desert and semi-desert motorised reconnaisance patrols during the counter-insurgency war in South West Africa / Namibia and Angola.
ReplyDeleteMedia have consistently claimed without substantiation that the foreign mercenaries in the "escape" convoy had been "hired" by Colonel Gaddafi. This begs the question: who was to pay for all this, (including the cost of "175 vehicles" acquired in Tripoli), given that Libya's assets had been frozen. I suggest Nato intelligence paid for it. No money worries there.
@Felix (20 December 2010) - Felix ridicules the notion that whistle-blower Odendaal was a "spy". It is known that Odendaal was at least a former spy / double agent who worked for 15 years with the post-apartheid South African Police Criminal Intelligence Unit. See http://www.citypress.co.za/SouthAfrica/News/Far-right-riddled-with-spies-20100627 The fact of the matter is that Odendaal remains the only non-rebel, non-NTC eyewitness who has gone on record as to the overt rationale of the operation and the covert deception that resulted in the capture, torture and execution of Colonel Gaddafi.
For what it's worth, here are URLs for the original Rapport Afrikaans language interviews with Odendaal, which were very widely scraped and quoted by other sites with varying degrees of spin and mistranslation:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rapport.co.za/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/SA-soldate-help-Ghaddafi-20111022
http://www.rapport.co.za/Wereld/Nuus/Ons-is-deur-die-ore-gewerk-20111029
"...who was to pay for all this, (including the cost of "175 vehicles" acquired in Tripoli), ..."
ReplyDeletetony blair ?
http://www.southerntimesafrica.com/news_article.php?id=6501&title=Confessions%20of%20a%20Coup%20Plotter&type=83
the question is, was it to "safe" or to "kill" and then: why ...or with wich intention? : " http://wikispooks.com/wiki/Lockerbie_Bombing " (dont know, what wikispooks speek there :oops: , its only because of the question : who would pay for this trip? )
(i took the first articles i found with ...google, sorry)
We still did not have the Rapport links here, did we? Thanks for that!
ReplyDeleteIn addition, the intelligence news service's special report said some of the accounts of Gaddafi's last days suggest that he abandoned the precautions which kept him safe for years and was not afraid to use the satellite and cell phones which gave his position away.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.presstv.ir/detail/206481.html
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/10/hillary-clinton-knew-of-qaddafi-white.html
ReplyDeleteHillary Clinton knew of Qaddafi ‘White Flag’ truce: US drone fired at Qaddafi convoy after negotiated truce
Early on October 19, Twitter messages from Gaddafi’s hometown of Sirte reported the presence of white flags across the devastated town. Flags were reported at multiple locations in the town, leaving some to believe the rebels were surrendering,
Madsen’s sources said Gaddafi was told to surrender to the al-Qaeda rebels besieging Sirte before morning prayers at 5 am, but that it was decided to surrender after the sun was well up in the sky so the white flags would be clearly visible.
http://www.infowars.com/madsen-gaddafi-flying-white-flag-when-killed/
A truce and a surrender are two different things. A white flag signifies a truce or a cease-fire, which is not the same as a surrender. A surrender is when you come out with your hands in the air.
ReplyDeleteMadsen as cited by Hurriya above relies on hearsay from unnamed sources. His claim is unsubstantiated and should be disregarded, especially considering that according to the infowars post as cited above, Madsen was supposed to later elaborate and update at his own website the hearsay claims. To date he has not done so.
PS - Besides, if Colonel Gadaffi and the loyalist high command were in the process of surrendering, they wouldn't need a convoy of vehicles in order to do so. All they had to do was walk a few blocks down the road to the frontline with their hands in the air and hand themselves over. A highly unlikely scenario indeed.
ReplyDeleteThe lawyer hired by Colonel Gaddafi's exiled daughter Aisha has written to ICC, stating: ''We don't think the [present Libyan government] has the capacity or will to investigate this crime (of Colonel Gaddafi's torture and execution). We are demanding an immediate investigation by the ICC.''
ReplyDelete"A delay until May would mean the loss of ballistic and forensic evidence and increased difficulties in identifying objective eyewitnesses," he said.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/gaddafis-daughter-demands-investigation-into-his-death-20111230-1pfjk.html
Aisha Gaddafi's lawyer explains why ICC must stop dragging its heels in investigating the circumstances of Colonel Gaddafi's capture, torture and execution:
ReplyDeletehttp://rt.com/news/gaddafi-murder-trial-icc-145/
What on Earth can be expected from a batch of people who said this, from Abdel-Jalil, after their elimination of the leader:
ReplyDelete"We have formed a committee to investigate how Gaddafi was killed during the clashes with his supporters while arresting him," Abdel-Jalil said in Benghazi.
"All Libyans wanted to prosecute him over what he did to them, from executions to imprisonment, corruption, wasting their money. Those who have an interest in killing him before prosecuting him are those who had an active role with him."
Yes indeed, they expect to find, and probably will, that he was killed in fighting between he and his loyalists and... him and his loyalists, to take secrets to the grave, apparently.
@CausticLogic - Yes, the Rats and their coalition partners in the axis of evil cannot be allowed to get away with it, and that's why this site and this page in particular (IMHO) are important. You have said somewhere this is a "history project" and so there's no need for any haste. I'd suggest this is also a campaigning site of sorts. In view of all the past and current media and other orchestrated disinformation and bias through ommision, maybe we need not just to debate the issues but also to conduct an incisive analysis of the plentiful data available here, and to disseminate it widely, including to the UN Human Rights Commission and to ICC, and to Aisha and her lawyer, among others.
ReplyDeleteI hope there's a mirror site somewhere reflecting the content of this site and this page in particular, just in case something "inexplicable" happens. Meanwhile, I'm making backups of everything, just in case ...
@CausticLogic - PS: got a link for the bizarre NTC claim quoted in your post above (Jan 20, 2012 02:49 PM) ? Thanks.
ReplyDeleteSeems like Reuters reported a press conference in Benghazi, for which there is no YouTube footage, from Misrata. on 24 October.
DeleteSome still photos of bodies from the convoy massacre on this page of the Corbis Images site.
ReplyDelete@ felix : YT footage Misrata :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.globalpost.com/video/5678720/location-sirte-falls-libya-looks-future
from start vid : body of the Colonel in Misrata/date ?
I'm not going there - too much disinformation. That's Mlegta with the spectacles at the start, on the left.
DeleteWhat puzzles me is the Nato report that 175 vehicles travelling "at high speed" were spotted leaving Sirte. Given the state of the roads in Sirte, it's difficult to accept that the vehicles were "speeding". I suggest they were proceeding very slowly and cautiously, picking their way through the rubble of District 2 in a devastated city. This would have been the opportune moment for Nato and the Rats to strike at virtually sitting targets. Unless a cease-fire agreement was in place -- a cease-fire that was later betrayed at the roundabout on the outskirts of Sirte, by which time the convoy might have speeded up. Just a thought. Among others.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2011/oct/13/libya-frontline-sirte-battle?intcmp=239#/?picture=380358540&index=22
@Petri Krohn (Dec 13, 2011 06:21 AM) - The link is dead/broken at "Saif Al Islam Gaddafi: Americans tried to tempt me to turn against my father". Anybody have a live link for that?
ReplyDeleteA Google search found it easily enough. Many mirrors/re-postings, but apparently from Libya S.O.S. originally.
DeleteIn which case must be taken with a grain of salt, regretably.
ReplyDelete@Petri Krohn (Dec 27, 2011 08:48 PM)-- Re: "This is the type of damage you would get from strafing by small caliber depleted uranium rounds. It does not take much to start a fire and uranium ignites on impact." It is also the type of damage you would get from using banned white phospheros munitions, as used unlawfuly by Israeli forces in Gaza, 2009. Alternatively, phosphoros (incendiary) handgrenades tossed through the open windows of vehicles. No visual evidence of rebel rats using handgrenades, but special forces would have been armed with such.
ReplyDelete(PS: "reply" button not working).
That last line made me have to try replying. It's working for me, for whatever that's worth.
DeleteNo opinion on the weaponry used - I don't know enough about these things.
@CausticLogic - I only mentioned the possible weaponry to imply we need keep a very open mind as to all reasonable possibilities in trying to unravel what really happened on that fateful day.
ReplyDeleteOh, and the reply button is still not working for me on this page only. (IE8 browser, WindowsXP OS, Service Pack 3) Not a big deal. I can live with it.
To return to the Libya SOS story cited by Petri on 13 Dec 2010 (and still without use of a reply button): Specifically re "If I understand this correctly, Libya S.O.S. is citing a television interview by Saif Al Islam Gaddafi. Did Muammar Gaddafi speak on the phone with Americans before his convoy decided to leave Sirte?" For my part I'm unable to understand anything at all about the exact source, be it a TV interview or whatever. Libya SOS can be very dubious when it comes to the credibility or otherwise of seemingly important claims that it makes without attribution or citation. But it seems highly questionable IMO that Saif in custody and as allegedly quoted would be allowed by his captors to say anything at all to the media on any subject whatsoever. Still, that Libya SOS report is certainly intriguing and might well be true. Who knows? Only Saif himself, and he's gagged from enlightening us and the world at large. Come on ICC, wake up, you lazy bastards.
ReplyDeleteAdd: The Libya SOS story about negotiations "with the Americans" for safe passage out of Sirte is datelined 13 December 2010. By which date Saif had already been captured. Nor, judging from his immaculate business suit and tie as shown in the accompanying image, was he still on the run when the purported TV interview or whatever took place. The mass circulation Telegraph (London)in November posted a series of videos showing Saif in custody, such as here showing he was in tribal dress while on the run. I won't be providing the other Telegraph URLs because they're clearly propagandistic and go to pains to impart the (probably false) public impression that Saif is/was being treated humanely (unlike his late father and others, which alarmed world opinion).
ReplyDeletehttp://www.infowars.com/stratfor-emails-us-government-contractor-was-involved-in-gaddafi-killing-now-aiding-syrian-regime-change/
ReplyDeleteStratfor Emails: US Government Contractor Was Involved In Gaddafi Killing
former director of Blackwater, the US mercenary contractor organization, was sent by the US government to fight alongside rebels in Libya, and was even involved in the killing of Muammar Gaddafi.
Al-Akhbar English reports on the email stash leaked by Wikileaks, that shows former Blackwater director Jamie F. Smith struck up a rapport with Stratfor vice president Fred Burton.
Mahmoud Jibril,is still maintaining that Gaddafi was killed by outside forces because he had too many secrets he said this during an interview with RT.But the fact that this man still insists that this wasn't a civil war really amazes me the most.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRLyffW8faQ&list=UUpwvZwUam-URkxB7g4USKpg&index=4&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctEHV0x6wXA&feature=related
ReplyDeleteBBC News Gaddafi not a target says army chief
@ 0.59 : not allowed by UN resolution
First used in Vietnam and co-manned by USAF and RAF crews, Rivet Joint planes were deployed in the hunt for Osama bin Laden and carry voice-recognition software to identify radio and telephone traffic.
DeleteLord West, Britain’s former chief of defence intelligence, says Nato will be using air power and satellite imagery to scour Libya for any sign of Gaddafi.
“As the tipping point has come and we’ve moved into Tripoli, I’m sure a larger and larger share of (Nato’s) capability will have been turned to finding Gaddafi because he is a centre of gravity for all of this,” he said.
http://indepthafrica.com/news/northafrica/nato-using-hi-tech-kit-to-track-down-gaddafi/
http://twocircles.net/2012apr04/three_libyans_beat_two_afghans_gurgaon.html
ReplyDeleteLibyans Ahmed Ali, Naem Ali and Goseria Foress, aged 22-23, beat up Afghans Mohammad Yasin, 40, and Abdul Kalam, 35. Both the victims suffered minor injuries.
GURGAON: Two Libyan nationals, who were allegedly part of the rebel army that killed Gaddafi, were arrested early on Sunday morning for quarrelling and disturbing peace on "mall mile".
The Libyan nationals, who are around 25-26 years old, were identified as Mahmood and Farz, natives of Alborobo in Benghazi, Libya.
"The duo were heavily drunk and quarrelling with each other when they were arrested around 2am on Sunday. They were produced in a city court and sent to judicial custody," said investigative officer Krishan Kumar.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/gurgaon/2-Libyan-nationals-held-for-creating-ruckus-on-MG-Road/articleshow/12588500.cms
Moroccan court postpones a case involving Gaddafi because of uncertainty of his death!! #Tripoli #Libya #Algeria
ReplyDeletehttp://twitpic.com/8vo4cp
http://thesantosrepublic.com/2011/10/purging-psyops-usa-murdered-gaddafi-and-the-legacy-of-libyas-great-leader/
SPECIAL REPORT SERIES by Lady Michelle Jennifer Santos – TSR Founder & Publisher and Strategy/Peace Negotiator with the UN Security Council Special Envoy to the Arab Nations
Here are the real FACTS: The U.S. Government ordered the Libyan rebels to execute him. The murder of Colonel Gaddafi was in fact sanctioned by the US Secretary of State who was in Libya only yesterday. But let me give you something the mainstream media and FUK-Usa will never tell you: TRUTH – from intelligence agents, and from Saif al-Islam, Aisha and their attorneys.
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re twitpic: the photo of the real G. doesn't look like the one who allegedly died!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIbEHS8jJNs&feature=fvwp
ReplyDeleteGaddafi's Driver
عندما قبض ثوارنا الأبطال على الطاغية وأزلامه
Gaddafi's Cousin 1st Person on the video along side the rest of Gaddafi henchmen the minute he was captured
No Western leader exemplified this sad state of affairs more than US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton as they competed with one another for the best gloat over Gaddafi's gruesome murder. Clinton beat them all when she said over CBS TV 'We came, we saw, he died' in a pathetic attempt to paraphrase Julius Caesar whilst laughing away in jubilation over the latest murder of yet another third world leader.
ReplyDeleteSickeningly, her host couldn't hide her glee either as she too joined in the fun. And this on a TV network that brags about journalistic values and all the hogwash that goes along with such snow-white claims. So much for an unbiased American media!
But there was a slip. CBS was conducting a formal interview with Clinton when her aides interrupted the recording to convey the 'breaking news' of Gaddafi's murder. As she, her aides and the TV crew joked over Gaddafi's murder the reporter slipped in a question. 'Did your recent surprise visit to Libya have anything to do with Gaddafi's death?" 'No' replied Clinton. Then she rolled her eyes adjusted her jacket and confessed 'I am sure it did'.
This raises a question. Was there a sense of relief in Clinton's gloating? Did she or her fellow politicians in the US have something to hide? After all it was not so long ago that President Barack Obama gave Gaddafi a firm handshake. Was Gaddafi more dangerous as a prisoner of war than head of state? Would he have spilled the beans on Western leaders like Clinton when he had nothing to lose?
http://sundaytimes.lk/111106/Timestwo/int010.html
Already the NTC is in a bind. The UN has called for investigations into the murder of Gaddafi and about 56 others who were executed by an overzealous mob of 'rebels'.
@Hurriya I couldn't agree with you more.But most people were horrified at what she said so that was a good thing. And of course they would try to counter any sympathy by saying that he was the richest man in the world which was a lie. In a way a Dead gaddafi is more dangerous to the NTC because now he is considered a hero through the arab world.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I8d6RTlxQc&feature=plcp&context=C47a34d2VDvjVQa1PpcFMmID0OomaHEEzaSeZMKnUfVgKqJIdT_pU=
thx for the link, sam.
ReplyDeleteThe suspicion that they have sprayed nerve gas :
Gaddafi toxicology tests " revealed traces of fentanyl, carfentanil &halothane,
http://warisacrime.org/content/libya-another-lost-nato-war
http://www.youtube.com/user/AfriSynergy#p/u/0/eYfg4KHxKGA
NERVE GAS
as for investigating Gaddafi death i doubt they will ever do it considering that still haven't investigated the death of Abdel Fatel Younis.
ReplyDelete@ sam :
Deletehttp://egyptday1.blogspot.com/2011/09/photocopy-zaidbenjamin-urgent-ntc.html
Photocopy @zaidbenjamin Urgent: #NTC mistier of defense directive not to call Younis for investigation #Benghazi #Tripoli
@Soldatovich Likely. I recall Cameron sending thousands of his commandos into the Desert to hunt for Gaddafi, just after the fall of Tripoli
ReplyDelete1.500 Brtions were acutally destroyed in #Libya, not 35 as claimed by the #Cameron-regime. #RussiaToday (Arabic)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1229964&l=e4acaad583&id=297509086955875
At least 1500 British soldiers died in their effort to remove the legitimate Jamahariya government according to "Arabic RT". The figure has been reportedly leaked from a closed German parliament meeting.
http://www.majalla.com/eng/2012/04/article55230773
all interventions are to bring about a change in a regime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H86NFaU16q4&list=UUlygDQmAKoVQ92rCmPpyGKw&index=3&feature=plcp
ReplyDeleteأخر كلمات تلفظ بها القذافي- حرام عليكم .. حرام عليكم
Last words Gaddafi - Shame on you ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqUIF-PyVkA&feature=autoplay&list=UUlygDQmAKoVQ92rCmPpyGKw&lf=plcp&playnext=1
الثوار قتلوا القذافى رميا بالرصاص بعد القبض عليه حيا
misrata brigade interviewed,killer Gaddafi
http://www.channel4.com/news/joy-and-relief-for-libyans-in-britain
ReplyDeleteThe director of Lawyer's for Justice in Libya, Elham Saudi :
Gaddafi was a legitimate combatant in a conflict
Some great quotes in there:
DeleteDr Ahmed Sewehli, a British-Libyan psychiatrist living in Manchester "The main thing is that Gaddafi is gone, he's been put out of action" I wouldn't like to be treated by this doctor. No Hippocratic oath there.
The director of Lawyer's for Justice in Libya, Elham Saudi, also has mixed feelings. She told Channel 4 News that "(although) it wasn't clear if justice had been achieved in Libya". Like murdering someone for example. Clearly a grey area. An eye for an eye etc. etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyi-FQF3zc8&feature=related
ReplyDelete@ 21.01 rebel with khadafi possessions , golden revolver, clothes
The U.S. Deputy Secretary of State "for democracy and human rights," Michael Posner answered by saying that he thought that the Libyan government had an extended agenda and that it would be unreasonable to expect that they were going to deal with every aspect of it.
ReplyDeleteHe had some difficulty finding the word to describe Gaddafi's death.
It was not clear whether, out of human forgetfulness, he wanted to say "this crime", but stopped in time, or thought that it would not be appropriate to call it "this little thing."
Nevertheless, the historic words were spoken: Tri-color Tripoli was fully and absolutely excused, and no longer even has to pretend to be bothered with an investigation of the extrajudicial execution of the leader. There are plenty of other things to do.
http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/crimes/31-05-2012/121286-gaddafi_death-0/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDvlJ_1DoSI&feature=youtu.be
ReplyDeleteThe Truth About Libya, Gaddafi, And The Illuminati HD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv1iuLuOmGE&feature=youtu.be
ReplyDeletedoubts about leader's dead
de.puta.madreJuly 16, 2012 3:24 PM
ReplyDeleteSorry ... New Video about Gaddafi [ in ambulance ] was release today. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1f9_1342464674 This Misratas are UNPEOPLE ... Sub-Humans
http://twitpic.com/a91pbb
ReplyDeleteThese 4 Misrata men are still held hostage by Bani Walid.
https://www.facebook.com/bntripoli/posts/338051689610885
Apparently “this brave lion “ has been slaughtered in Beni Walid.....
One of the murderers of Muammar Gaddafi, Omran Bin Shaban from Misrata, is held by Warfalla tribe in Bani Walid
Delete"Her Majesty's Government do not use armed remotely piloted air systems against terrorist suspects outside Afghanistan," replied Lord Astor.
ReplyDelete"However, UK personnel flew armed remotely piloted air systems missions against Gaddafi's forces in Libya in 2011, in support of the Nato humanitarian mission authorised under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973." :
The RAF pilots may have belonged to a unit stationed at the Nellis US air force base in the Nevada desert since the Iraq war.
During the campaign to oust Col Gaddafi, it was reported that US drones were used over Libya. Military sources said that a Predator drone, which is most often equipped with Hellfire missiles, was involved in bombing the Libyan dictator's convoy as he attempted to flee his home town Sirte.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9430380/Britain-flew-drones-over-Libya.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZCYRbDMjEM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
ReplyDeleteصورة نادرة لمعتصم لم تظهر فى الاعلام من قبل شاهدوها
Published on Jul 26, 2012 by SheikhKishk
*
Forty cars in all fled along the beachside but NATO Apache helicopters disabled the convoy, killing dozens.
Megarif said 12 cars had left from their section
“They stayed behind to protect the cars like a suicide mission.
Nearby was a cluster of several more bodies in a field.
Several fighters said Gadhafi’s son Mutassim had been captured in this area. Lufty Alamin, who transported the body back to Misrata, said that he was shot in the chest while attempting to flee.
The remaining men fled into the fields. Several prisoners captured the night before had confirmed Gadhafi’s son Mustassim was still within Sirte. As Algady and several battalions pursued the escapees, they had been expecting to find him. No one had expected Gadhafi himself to be among the convoy.
Within Sirte, bodies littered the streets. The body of one sniper lay on a rooftop. Wooden boards formed walkways to neighboring houses.
In courtyards, holes had been blown through the stone fences to form escape routes. Rebel fighters towed away damaged cars. The houses, mostly blown to pieces by rockets, grenades and gunfire, seemed empty of possessions.
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/21/rebels_recount_gadhafis_last_moments/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aY-6Q0F1kE
ReplyDeletemohamed zintani , who claims to have been a prison dr 1.47/1.54
is he a relative of :
Conclusion:
Furthermore, the data available to us did not contradict the possibility of a deliberate transmission of HIV to the infected children.
Dr. Othman Al-Shibani Al-Zentani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_trial_in_Libya
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http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/24978/World/Region/Gaddafi-killed-by-bullets-says-unfinished-autopsy.aspx
Doctor Othman el-Zentani, who examined Gaddafi's body
http://www.libyauprisingarchive.com/1021---1025-from-a-good-source.html
ReplyDeleteI tried to make a map for Gaddafi capturing events.
AreaNo.2 was G last stand before trying to escape south. (1/3)
pic.twitter.com/rQUFVADX
https://twitter.com/blabeen/status/127652133125369856/photo/1
#GaddafiConvoy tried 2 push itsWay through FF lines,they failed & toke cover behind a wallOf electricityFacility #Libya
pic.twitter.com/JtwjW3r6
Gaddafi convoy toke cover behind a wallOf an electricity facility, smOf them moved 2 a near by house #Sirte #Libya
pic.twitter.com/6D2UfWia
https://twitter.com/blabeen/status/127654688425385985/photo/1
NATO’s 1st hit, G & smOfHis men went on foot 2 a nearBy trees thn in2 pipes.corpses ofHis men scattrd around #Libya
pic.twitter.com/WrqYZYSV
https://twitter.com/blabeen/status/127656896848068608/photo/1
Around 10-15 cars r destroyed n the 1st hit, many dead & burned bodies around. smOf the cars tried to retreat. #Libya
pic.twitter.com/FZ3sBGzS
https://twitter.com/blabeen/status/127658730824278016/photo/1
I didn’t c the 2nd&3rd NATO hit but frm the2 sites it s clear it wasn’t FF cuz walls around have a little damage.#Libya
pic.twitter.com/l8iRMIDD
https://twitter.com/blabeen/status/127661229996126208/photo/1
The cars were hit while GF hiding behind walls & not like a column on the road as the diagram shows, roads around r clean.
I don’t think it ws a Heli. the 1st hit ws big 1. cars carried a lot of light ammo & sm RBGs & mortar rounds.
I have some videos for the sites, I’m trying 2 minimize their size so i could upload them, my connection s VSlow :(.
It s difficult to tell a lot of 14.5mm & 23.5m gun fire, vry noisy.
Many the burned cars were carrying a lot of light ammo. show me a pic i could tell.
these holes could b frm bullets or shrapnel, nothing links them specifically 2 Heli attack.
Watch it here:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HcOt-ObtpA&fea...
deleted
ShababLibya LibyanYouthMovement
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Mutassim Gaddafi in the back of ff pick-up truck
Video:
www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2516640920909
DR Tika who examined both bodies: Mutassim was killed aft his father died He was shot in upper part of his chest from short distance #Libya
FromJoanne Joanne ♌ Leo
ReplyDelete#Libyans PLS Tweet to Thank @AndersFoghR + @Nato Forces for Grand Operation in #Libya I am Grateful and full of admiration of #Nato
moez معز
#Libya is behind #Syria and we will support them in every way possible in their struggle against tyranny #feb17
A new report from Human Rights Watch (Death of a Dictator: Bloody Vengeance in Sirte, October 2012) details how the main Misrata-based militias (al-Nimer, Tiger Brigade, al-Isnad, Support Brigade, al-Fahad, Jaguar Brigade, al-Asad, Lion Brigade, al-Qasba, Citadel Brigade and Ussoud al-Walid, the Lions of the Valley Brigade) not only conducted extrajudicial assassinations of Muammar Qadhafi and his son Mutassim, but also killed over 66 prisoners in the Mahari hotel in Sirte on October 20, 2011.
ReplyDeleteTwo NATO air strikes had already killed about 103 members of Qadhafi’s convoy (many of them wounded patients from the Ibn Sina hospital, trying to flee the scene of the battle).
Cellphone images and photographs, as well as interviews with survivors, showed the investigators that the dead were killed in custody.
Human Rights Watch’s investigation is clear that war crimes had been committed at Sirte.
The Misrata chief prosecutor balked at an inquiry, saying that it would be too “dangerous” to “carry out an investigation in Sirte at the time,” a situation that seems unchanged.
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/victors-justice-bedevils-the-new-libya/article4048214.ece
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Mysteries of Muammar Gaddafi's death
The report relies heavily on interviews with Mansour Dhao, a senior security official and head of the pro-Gaddafi People’s Guard, and other surviving witnesses of the event.
The interviews took place in Libya two days after Mr. Gadhafi’s death.
http://english.pravda.ru/world/africa/22-10-2012/122531-muammar_gaddafi-0/
On the evening of October 24, Human Rights Watch researchers met with two men who described themselves as the two main commanders of the Tiger Brigade at their base in Misrata,
ReplyDeleteOmran al-Oweib and Abdal-Salaam (last name unknown).
some of the men later found dead at the Mahari Hotel were initially questioned and beaten, as shown on the mobile phone footage reviewed by Human Rights Watch.
Since Muammar Gaddafi was captured at about 11 a.m., and the commanders of the Tiger Brigade claim to have left Sirte from the Mahari Hotel at 12:30, it is difficult to see how the captives could have been transported from the scene of their capture to the hotel, where they were then apparently executed, all within this 90-minute period, without any knowledge or participation from the Misrata militias that occupied the hotel.
http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/libya1012webwcover_0_0.pdf
Omran el Oweyb, the commander who captured Gaddafi, said that he only managed to stagger ten steps before he fell to the ground.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8843684/Gaddafis-final-hours-Nato-and-the-SAS-helped-rebels-drive-hunted-leader-into-endgame-in-a-desert-drain.html