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Saturday, May 21, 2022

Bucha Mass Execution Video: A False-Flag?

May 21, 2022

(rough, incomplete)

Bucha Massacre {masterlist} 

May 25: I'm finally pulling down my entire post on this rather than trying to fix it in place. I'll be re-working it alongside a post on who controlled Bucha where and when. It will be some days at least. 

I raised questions about the recent New York Times investigation and article: "New Evidence Shows How Russian Soldiers Executed Men in Bucha: Witness testimony and videos obtained by The New York Times show how Russian paratroopers executed at least eight Ukrainian men in a Kyiv suburb on March 4, a potential war crime." https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/19/world/europe/russia-bucha-ukraine-executions.html

I'd have to subscribe to the rag to read it there, but I read an archived copy where the videos don't work, saw the most relevant videos on Twitter, posted in a short thread by NYT freelance video journalist Masha Froliak, and had people share some other bits from other videos.

But I hadn't read the article when I first did this post, nor correlated everything well at all, and then I ran ahead assuming another video of the site was dated March 4. In comparison, that suggested the "Russians" seen arresting the 9 men earlier that day and the "Russians" seen there on March 5 were different groups, who seemingly fought a battle in between their occupations of the massacre site. That is, I thought I had Ukrainian false-flaggers playing Russians in charge at the murder time, then chased away by the actual Russians. But upon learning more, most logically, that video was from March 3, and fits fairly well with the NYT report. It's interesting in different ways I need to work out.

A Twitter discussion with Qoppa, Kobs, and Collapse Into Now that started here has been super helpful. For now, I concede it's likely enough the Russians committed a war crime in this case, as the impressive-seeming investigation clearly found, I still more-than-half-suspect it was a false-flag, but that could just be habit, or anyway the case for that isn't so clear. I'm not arguing any one answer for now, just trying to get a basis to know what to argue. 

As part of the Bucha massacre story I've chosen to stick with, I will need to actually get this. A firm answer seeming unlikely, there are at least some questions worth raising, and more discussion might help decide which those are. I invite more of that here, and I plan to engage in it this time, including to catch up on what's already here. 

18 comments:

  1. I can read the NYT without problems using extension 'bypass paywalls' in chrome and firefox. It's a bit fiddly to install but works great for NYT and WaPo

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  2. P.S. When I read the NYT article, it seemed pretty consistent. The underlying story is the men murdered were combatants from some local plainclothes militia. For unknown reasons a further man was released when he admitted to being a combatant. Examination of why these specific 8 men were killed could be interesting.

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    1. When 8 fighting age men are found hiding in a house right next to an obvious militant checkpoint, apparently getting them to ADMIT they're fighters is super-important. I finally read it, and Kiev is going after the tattler for high treason, the secret was so important. That all might make sense like some this turns out to (like he also gave names or details). But it strikes me as weird now.

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  3. Where are the bodies shown near the fence in the drone footage? (I think a clearer video should be used as evidence the blue blob is that man's body but I digress)

    https://imgur.com/xlA1F4G

    In the other drone footage

    https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1499845981411631104

    isn't the vehicle shooting *the* checkpoint at 31 Yablunska st.?
    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/05/13/video/00vi-144-checkpoint/00vi-144-checkpoint-jumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp

    They obviously have more drone footage of what was going on March 4. Unless the checkpoint didn't appear until March 3, Russia just drove past it the day before. The next day it's worth destroying... feels like something is being left out of the story

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    1. Hey, goof point on bodies by the fence. I did note some were killed inside, so maybe 8 could be killed, some inside, so less outside. The story might contradict that, but there seems to be no bodies in that spot.

      Firing on tank is about at 31 Yablunska. Checkpoint driven past: some :"Russians" turn in there as well as passing it, coming from the east as Russians probably wouldn't. Seems kind of like they were just setting it up then.

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    2. NYT tells us the drone video on March 5 "showed the dead bodies" (plural) and that-

      "The bodies of the men killed in the parking lot and inside the building were brought to the courtyard and, together with the six other victims, would lie there for nearly a month"

      There should be at least 6 bodies even if the others were not moved yet

      Interesting too that the 'rounded up civilians' didn't have to have their heads covered and could just watch. Other accounts they were putting bags on people's heads e.g. Reuters March 3 "they began bringing men with white sacks over their heads".

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    3. They were sure to be seen shooting one camera, but leaving all its footage up to then, leaving another camera filming the same spot, other cameras filming the area, capturing a munch of witnesses made to stand there and witness the order to kill, to see the men, hear the shots, they let one guy go, and luckily failed to kill another, allowing yet another witness. That's one line of questions I have.

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    4. Just noticed I said "goof point." Of course I meant "good point." I sure gooded that one up.

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  4. "The video seems plausible until you look in detail. There is a lawn in the background with the green grass, which means the video was made very recently an dnot in March. The first soldier is in uniform, but the second is wearing civilian shoes and an American helmet, there is also no bulletproof vest. The acting is also questionable, so we can conclude that this is a fake one." https://southfront.org/new-evidence-of-butcha-massacre-raises-suspicions-kiev-fakes-do-not-end/

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    1. I don't buy the grass point, can't say on the gear, but generally agree on the gist.

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  5. Arman Soldin's full report filmed in Bucha on March 4 is here
    https://www.tf1.fr/tmc/quotidien-avec-yann-barthes/videos/20h15-express-guerre-en-ukraine-scenes-surrealistes-a-boutcha-a-quelques-kilometres-de-kiev-55514891.html

    starts around 1 minute in

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    1. This is NE Bucha

      https://imgur.com/zpzWHwm

      https://www.google.com/maps/@50.5549037,30.2492211,3a,75y,340.46h,92.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSQlbPZIo62djnEbHuTxSBw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

      Not sure where the fire at "93" is

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    2. Still not clear how this connects, but ...

      Fire at 93 = the one just east of Y17 seen on March 3, tank driving by? We know where that is. Part of this was filmed around there the 4th and the fire isn't visible? If so, yeah, I was wrong to think that was the 4th.

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    3. I mean the house in the TF1 video that says "93" on the gate. I'm not sure where it is? (but def. on fire on March 4!)

      https://imgur.com/VF64Aj9

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    4. "93" is apparently in Irpin
      https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/yevghen-zbormyrsky-is-comfirted-as-he-stands-in-front-of-news-photo/1238917608

      Delete
  6. There is a newer 'street view' picture of the HRW house (Jan 2022 if any help with this https://twitter.com/CL4Syr/status/1528582921233149953 )

    https://www.google.com/maps/@50.5245693,30.1868209,3a,45.1y,213.34h,84.56t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipOQl_b53IqogP8JuDacTZ_fY68HtY6rH_LesF1c!2e10!5s20220101T000000!7i10560!8i5280

    so hit from the north on March 5

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    1. https://www-bbc-com.translate.goog/russian/features-60988371?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

      The image of 17 Yablunska on here has "02:05" in the corner-it was a video? Or means something else? Telegram and Facebook don't seem to put a leading zero on the video time.

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  7. Irpin - I was looking for the story about the 10 Ukraine special forces 'hunting Russians' near Kiev at the end of Feb. Instead - a bunch of Ukrainian stories that may or may not be true or relevant

    Feb 26
    'Russian special forces' in Irpin tell people they are "local defense forces" (i.e. no uniform)

    https://twitter.com/Worldnews195/status/1497465343878787079


    March 1
    "people who look like locals shooting at other locals" in Irpin. Locals report strangers and special forces "take care" of them.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/locals-shooting-at-locals-kyiv-hunts-russian-saboteurs/ar-AAUtfO1


    March 4
    WSJ Ukrainian special forces in Irpin paywalled story

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-special-forces-hold-off-russian-offensive-on-kyivs-front-lines-11646417190


    March 5
    "deep" in Irpin?

    https://twitter.com/S_B_R_News/status/1500122606061731843


    March 8
    Russians "in Irpin"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igwxTjkW2t0


    March 20
    Irpin territorial defense considered "special forces, disguised as homeless people" by Russia (i.e. no uniform?)

    https://itvua.tv/news/pravozakhysnyk-i-zhurnalist-kostiantyn-rieutskyy-pro-irpinsku-teroboronu-vzhe-khodiat-lehendy/

    ReplyDelete

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