Warning: This site contains images and graphic descriptions of extreme violence and/or its effects. It's not as bad as it could be, but is meant to be shocking. Readers should be 18+ or a mature 17 or so. There is also some foul language occasionally, and potential for general upsetting of comforting conventional wisdom. Please view with discretion.

Thursday, November 18, 2021

More Clues from Douma's Location 2

Douma Chemical MassacreVictims Analysis: More Clues from Douma's Location 2

November 18, 2021


We'll start with two newly published videos of the 2018 Douma chemical massacre, but both describing the 2013 Ghouta chemical massacre, and released on or near that anniversary. 

Aug 21, Youtube, 6:27: فيديو يعرض لاول مرة عن مجزرة الكيماوي في الغوطة كي لا ننسى جرائم هذا النظام المجرم - YouTube ("A video showing for the first time about the chemical massacre in Ghouta so that we do not forget the crimes of this criminal regime" - next is an answer to getting them mixed-up) posted by يا طوبى للشام ( O Blessed is the Sham (Syria) ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INlUB2A9Jz0

Aug. 23, Twitter, 0:45: M HABIB on Twitter: "Le massacre de la Ghouta Nouvelle vidéo, nouveau document poignant sur les victimes du bombardement au gaz sarin par le régime syrien à Ghouta https://t.co/oG3qfQIryj" / Twitter

They both show the pivotal "Location 2" with reported 35 fatalities. The shorter video appears nowhere else I've seen, but the long one was reposted many times on Facebook, including by "expatriate obsessions" ( هواجيس مغتربا ) and on the page friends of France 24 in Arabic, where Abu Firas Homsi blamed "Bashar Al-Buhrzi" (? = بشار البهرزي ) plus "the Persians" "the criminal Putin" and declares France 24 and the West at large "are the one who helped Iran" to make Sham (Syria), Iraq and Lebanon into "Iranian provinces," besides facilitating the chemical attack shown: "On this day ... Ten years ago (Aug. 21, 2011 ... 2 years earlier than most realize!)... the Syrian regime targeted the cities of "Zamalka, Ain Tarma, Harasta and Douma" in Eastern Ghouta and Muadamiyat al-Sham in Western Ghouta" with sarin, killing 1,461 people and causing "the injury of 9,757 people, according to Syrian Network for Human Rights." 

A 2019 report gives those numbers for all the government's alleged CW attacks combined. (Accountability Remains Absent on the Sixth Anniversary of the World’s Largest Chemical Weapons Attack Since the Chemical Weapons Convention | Syrian Network for Human Rights (sn4hr.org) (a 2020 update gives 11,212 injured, 1,510 killed in all combined) 

And BTW note how that also gives as among the dead seven "Syrian regime prisoners of war" (or "prisoners of the regime" in the report) held by the local "opposition" occupying Adra Omaliya, on September 24, 2014. It would be the deadliest alleged chlorine attack until 2018 (otherwise the maximum was six killed at once). Videos, opposition records, and timing show these were captured civilians including a father and son - never described as criminals but "prisoners of war" ... and plunder, and kidnapping. Three of these are shown dead on video - one old, one ill, one previously injured. It seems they were low-value prison-laborers killed somehow before militants fled the area the following day with all valuable possessions - like useful civilian prisoners. They're seen with bleeding holes in the left (heart) sides of their chests, and no sign of chlorine exposure (like the expected red eyes). See here.

Okay - this network of SNHR-citing and especially clueless Shami activists is interesting in itself. But the videos offer a few new details I'll focus on here, mainly sharing a revamped map of Location 2. My prior mapping was never remotely accurate, just enough to show what rooms bodies were found in ... trying to account for bodies and objects even in rooms without bodies and having more such rooms to correlate makes it start to make better, if still imperfect, sense ... I may update that with the more accurate layout.

My initial tweet on the short video's tour of floor 3 included this map, to be revised below: 

Andrew comments alerting to the longer video also noted "some kind of stretcher?" jammed into one of the doorways is probably a step ladder. I agreed with some embarrassment, and noted ( tweet 2 ) it would be about this size - modeled beneath the cylinder in the ceiling just around the corner (see improved floor 3 mapping below). That might be a simple coincidence, of course. But it might be a more relevant type of coincidence.

Qoppa comments on the first-discussed shorter video: "Do we hear bombing in the background (00:35, 00:40)? That would point to a time rather in the morning when bombing resumed." (Syrian Air Force generally operates only in daylight). It sounds like that to me. In fact I hear distant blasts in the first 5 seconds, closer at 0:13, closer yet at 0:19, then a short pause and more over the last seconds. That's rather active bombing - nearly constant (noting insurgent surrender was finalized after just a few hours of this final assault of April 8). By that measure, the longer video may be earlier; it's all quiet outside until 2:25, when we hear a single blast nearby, then nothing clear until a distant blast at 4:31, closer at 4:35, then more at 5:08, 5:30, 5:54, 6:00, 6:06 and 6:22. Video ends 6:27, probably just before proper sunrise. 

Furthermore: The longer video shows G10 in purple is in the later position atop the pile of bodies on the ground floor main room. So this is after the initial 10PM videos when she was in the kitchen area, and after ~1am when she was seen being moved by a White Helmet's "rescuer." But it's not so late that we see daylight inside, and early enough that G7 and G9 are still present (they're the first removed - see here).

More dead girl rearrangement: G1 at the top of the stairs is seen in both new videos in a different position than before. First seen on the landing between floors 2 and 3, she's now moved 1/2 flight of stairs down, next to G2 right above floor 2. (left: shot video. Right: long video - G1 in red, G2 stripes). For now skipping the issues of blood, causes, other positions (see if needed discussion w/Qoppa under my tweet).

These 2 with a dirty cloth nearby always seemed to be the ones described here: "By his third frantic dash down the stairs, with a wet piece of cloth over his mouth and a little girl in each arm, everything went dark for Khaled Abu Jaafar." (Al-Jazeera) He would have dropped them near each other, and then been rescued himself. This arrangement we've never seen fits that even better, side-by-side as if they were one under each of a man's arms. Did he come in after the 10PM video where recue already seemed a moot point, pick up the already dead G1 and then dashed down to just pick up G2 and pass out instantly, dropping them so G1 seems totally unmoved?  No. It seems like he just tailored his story of "frantic" rescue to this later scene. Oops. But we can guess he was there and saw this, and didn't fit his story to the (then) published videos.

More clues in the mapping

Mapping floors 1, 2 and 3 with images mainly from the new videos (others of importance added from prior images too). Labeling doors at each floor by letters, right-to-left. Seems like 2 apartments per floor, with 2C being sort of a back door to what I'll call apartment 2B. Bodies were found in apartments 1A and 2B, besides the stairwell and outside. Other clues as they come up.

First the basement, as previously mapped here - no bodies were found here, but it's said the residents were all sheltering here to start. Most shoes are seen here, and note that's plausible; shoes off at home is normal, even if it's a temporary shelter home. They might put them back on to assist in fleeing deadly gas, but who can say for sure?

Then upon smelling the descending caustic gas, they all fled upstairs - passing an open entrance right onto the street and fresher air, returning to the supposedly gas-filled ground floor and up to the 2nd floor, through any open door desperately seeking water to wash their faces, then piling up there with wet faces, not paralyzed and remaining conscious, to slowly die. They would have to take some doors off the hinges to do this, drag themselves on rugs, and somehow managed to do it without their feet touching the dusty floor of this seemingly abandoned building. 

Floor 1 (top middle images go with apartment 1A, green dot room):

The green dot room with the lone boy victim B6 was mysterious; it seemed too small to have its own north window, yet was fully lit in the morning. Apparently that's a door with a window all up the middle: it reflects the camera's light at night, at the same level the door frame reflects it, and allows the sun later.

Again, I've noted by the shower a discarded respirator (for moderate exposure to noxious gasses/fumes), dirty, damp rags, a wet, muddy floor, and noting more than before a pail seeming full of yellow-brown water ... mostly re-collected after the mysterious washing of faces and hair? Red smears on the front, or lettering? Red smears all over the sink's underside? Is that all rust stains? Did they wipe a lot of blood off someone? B3 nearby and some others were leaking edema fluids with high blood content. But mainly they exude a yellow-brown liquid, variously seen foamed up or dissolved to liquid.

The longer new video offers a new view inside in apartment 1B. Yellow-brown liquid at the entrance to the red dot room suggests someone may have been briefly planted there, leaking the usual mystery fluids, and was then moved - probably to be among those we've already seen. The fluid seems to smear around the door's corner to the couch (and that  may have been moved later to partly cover the spot), and was copious enough it then flowed back up the hall (part marked lime green). 

Buckets in the wash room across the hall were possibly used for victim washup as seen by the others, maybe causing the amount of fluid we see. There's an unusual pair of discarded shoes where no one was allegedly sheltering, and a yellow spot on the rug that's probably some clothing item (head scarf?), not a mass of that liquid (too discrete and brightly-colored)

Floor 2: 

Behind door 2C (apartment 2B's bedroom), I had noted an unclear body #6 looking like a woman in black - with better views now, that looks more like black clothing (green box). The staining along the edge, however, could mean someone was there (still is, unseen?). The supposed 35th body here remains unseen - or unborn? W5 was very pregnant. Maybe that's what they meant. 

2A is another door off its hinges, mostly unseen behind a red curtain. It's left in place at the base, but angled back against the wall inside. Inside, an area to the left is seen, with a shower and sink, two rooms with slight glimpses inside. One has a yellow object similar to the chlorine gas cylinder seen at ceiling level of the floor above this, but shorter or of an unclear overall size - just marked for reference and discussion.  

Floor 3:

... interesting new bits partly noted above. Maybe more soon.

Noting: 10PM video - only prior view of floor 3 - is totally unclear as to whether there's a stepladder in that doorway then or only later. 


  1. Good work- possible for shoes in 1B:


    Object on the far right is not a shoe (some other piece of clothing?), another shoe at the entrance to 1B

    1. Hey, there you are. Yeah, just one shoe, so the nearest lone shoe probably goes with it. Good call.

    2. These 2 White Helmets sound like they're wearing gas masks too? Good spot on the 2C bedroom change- so (assuming the WHs communicate with each other) at the point this video was filmed it wasn't really a 'search'

      This guy is great btw, blinded by rage for Maté. I'm going for- they deployed to Syria to investigate the scene of *this* one allegation hence the weight put on Douma over say GPPi's 300 repeated allegations where the FFM didn't visit the scene

    3. And by "great" obviously I mean "dickhead"

      Deploys with the FFM to do the work of an inspector in the FFM, inspector of the same organization, with the same security as the FFM, receives orders from the FFM team leader and continues to do so even after returning from Syria. Is then even given a task involving the FFM's Highly Protected information on the cylinders. ("But he's not in the FFM")

    4. Strange that the nonsense argument that 'there would have been witnesses' to any cylinder placing has come up again too.

      Especially considering what has to have been lost or not noticed- White Helmets can't find the 4pm cylinder even though right next to their HQ, Douma Revolution can't find the 500 people with genuine respiratory problems to film (even though someone tweeted about it at 8pm) and then everyone at L2 failed to witness a low hovering helicopter and apparently lost a second "device" from in front of the building. But activists with gas masks *could* find a non-leaking cylinder out of sight in a private bedroom.

    5. The Bellingcat-types still don't understand that their link about WW1 refers to a mixture of phosgene and chlorine so proves nothing about the onset of pulmonary edema via chlorine gas. Some random website might say 30 minutes, but why then do the consulted experts all say it takes hours?

      They also don't seem to get that victims washing themselves and being 'rapidly immobilized' by unbearable gas clouds are mutually exclusive.

    6. It turns out they think WW1 phosgene+chlorine mix victims are "chlorine victims" (figures).


  2. Replies
    1. I see him making up medical facts now too. Bhatti seems to have forgotten the 'hundreds' of chlorine attacks in Syria from which they could show victims with "rapid frothing".

      Instead they offer an example with a different chemical and another with the woman who was exposed for who knows how long before trying to escape- maybe hid inside the house until unbearable as others did or tried to get home first etc. Or not.. according to their made up back story.

      Why does apartment 1A count as a 'water source' when 1B (or any other apartment) also has a bathroom? Apart from 1A has no front door to keep the gas out even if they 'think is coming in from the street'.

      Sometimes I think they're just trolling, the way the BC I'm-a-chemist's describe it, it's as if chlorine never needed to be superseded by a better weapon in WW1.

    2. I haven't obsessed over the dates of these documents, so maybe there is an answer to why they've decided Dr Whelan 'didn't include' the toxicologist meeting for any reason other than it hadn't happened when the first draft was written.


      The date is simply "June 2018", timeline ends on 3 June with the meeting dated 6 June and discussion about the minutes in August. Is there an exact date showing the first draft was written after 6 June or are they just making things up again?

    3. Progress.. Higgins says that Masa/Malaz (and Hassan Diab) not "exposed to gas". Interesting little anecdote about chlorine exposure too-


      Unclear if he knows he concedes family of Masa/Malaz are liars (and that Hassan Diab wasn't coerced into pretending he wasn't a gas victim..)

  3. I think the new line w/clinic patients is they weren't exposed but no hoax - people just thought they were exposed and started hosing each other off. Why Masa/Malaz had that story then, and that smelly backpack ... must be from some other confusion.

    As for the draft report, it seems later than June 6 and pretty clearly reflects the German experts' input in a way no public report would. I guess the timeline just wasn't updated to show it yet. Marschke is just citing Whitaker here, who ignores the meeting was described as having TWO purposes, with cause of death being listed second but seen as the yielding the "key take-away message." Turns out the experts weren't just rambling off-course there. (all in a delayed but nearly-done blog post)

    1. It would be at least somewhat more believable if the family hosed by 'mistake' hadn't then followed it up with a very detailed and different story to nearly all of western media.

      And I see - so 7.85 in the draft. And what the FFM appear to have done is swapped out those original chlorine-specific opinions for the less specific 8.98 "In general, the presence and context of the airway secretions...". While the DL was very specifically exposing pieces of wood to chlorine gas.

    2. Those sections of the draft at least show Dr Whelan didn't 'leave out' the meeting from the timeline because it was deemed somehow unimportant or 'just about exhumations'.

    3. https://archive.md/8NJG7

      Lucas accuses Maté of "misrepresenting" OPCW documents which is ironic given his previous tweet being entirely a lie. His target audience are people unable to read 8.103 "it is not currently possible".. etc.?

      "Denialism" here seems to be anyone refuting faith based opinions with fact. Yet none of these people seem to want the OPCW to simply show their supposedly convincing assessments and evidence to their own veteran inspectors, resolving everything and destroying any alleged disinfo campaigns.

      Still no mention of Islam Alloush on al-bab.com but EA Worldview at least has an article now (not by Lucas).. claiming mistreatment by the French.


Comments welcome. Stay civil and on or near-topic. If you're at all stumped about how to comment, please see this post.