rough, incomplete
On the advice of Qoppa999, I make this dedicated post.
Irritated Eyes...
… Are They White or Red?
I'll start with the points addressed in my critique of a New York Times video report on the visual evidence they pretended supports government guilt.
… Another supposed expert (Jennifer Knaack) thinks chlorine causes corneal burns that make the eyes appear white? What a moron. The literature has been pretty clear for over a century, but a bit more mixed the last few years in Syria; the acid created when chlorine contacts the water in the eyes causes a mild to severe redness in the eyes. In more severe cases, from what I know, they'll start melting, get really red and pour blood. The point where the whites are still white is at little or no exposure, not at severe exposure like they heard. Whiteness over the whites is generally the point the Douma victims are at.
The added whiteness over the pupils she seems to be referring to, I think, is a simple phenomenon they call "clouding." It's a basic thing that happens to all dead people and animals, like rigor mortis.
...
This eye claim has previously been made by supposed chemical expert Keith Ward. In an article run by Bellingcat, he decided "the vast majority of the clinical signs and symptoms (such as the corneal opacification...)" are, of all chemicals around, "most consistent with exposure to high levels of chlorine, although they do not completely rule out that a nerve agent might have also been involved." What a moron. He clarifies they refer to clouding, and are unaware this is just a sign of death. … He's also cited in the NYT repot at 9:24, testifying to the frothy mucous clue, but not the eyes. Instead, Knaack is brought on to address that. Did Ward decide to drop that point, forcing them to find someone less qualified to repeat what they had heard around … from the likes of Mr. Ward?
This BBC article takes reports from locals of "corneal burns" and/or "cornea irritation" as signs of chlorine, seen/reported on patients and those found in the home - who only display clouding, which should NOT be seen on living patients.
French Intel report
https://publicintelligence.net/fr-syria-chemical-attack-douma/
"French experts analysed the symptoms identifiable in the images and videos that were made public," and tallied:
Suffocation, asphyxia or breathing difficulties, (observed for sure, or inferred from claims and the wearing of masks?)
Mentions of a strong chlorine odour and presence of green smoke in affected areas, (they observed mentions? Or just passing on claims?)
Hypersalivation and hypersecretions (particularly oral and nasal), (the noted and evident foam)
Cyanosis, (noted, evident)
Skin burns and corneal burns. (observed? mentioned? No explanation or description what it looked like)
No deaths from mechanical injuries were visible. All of these symptoms are characteristic of a chemical weapons attack, particularly choking agents and organophosphorus agents or hydrocyanic acid (the solution of hydrogen cyanide in water).
* this image search for cornea irritation shows what I'm saying: this means red eyes, not ones that are cloudy as if one were dead.
* here's one easily found online explanation of post mortem eye clouding.
* Here's another list of the basic signs of death, one of which is "Clouding of the cornea." Explained: "The transparent window of the eye begins to cloud quickly after death."
French Intel report
https://publicintelligence.net/fr-syria-chemical-attack-douma/
"French experts analysed the symptoms identifiable in the images and videos that were made public," and tallied:
Suffocation, asphyxia or breathing difficulties, (observed for sure, or inferred from claims and the wearing of masks?)
Mentions of a strong chlorine odour and presence of green smoke in affected areas, (they observed mentions? Or just passing on claims?)
Hypersalivation and hypersecretions (particularly oral and nasal), (the noted and evident foam)
Cyanosis, (noted, evident)
Skin burns and corneal burns. (observed? mentioned? No explanation or description what it looked like)
No deaths from mechanical injuries were visible. All of these symptoms are characteristic of a chemical weapons attack, particularly choking agents and organophosphorus agents or hydrocyanic acid (the solution of hydrogen cyanide in water).
* this image search for cornea irritation shows what I'm saying: this means red eyes, not ones that are cloudy as if one were dead.
* here's one easily found online explanation of post mortem eye clouding.
* Here's another list of the basic signs of death, one of which is "Clouding of the cornea." Explained: "The transparent window of the eye begins to cloud quickly after death."
Some images show an additional red-black band across the white of the eye I've rarely seen or noted. Digging around, it seems they call this tache noir (black spot): if the eyes are left open after death, I guess from not blinking/moving and moistening like usual, the exposed part darkens that way (in the dark or only in the sun or light?). This may be the cause of the dark spots on the eyes of the boy whose left eye is shown below (small, in the lower right corner). That also is not a chlorine burn.
There are injuries to the eye that cause scarring that appears opaque like the Douma victims and all other dead people. Glaucoma causes similar. I've seen cloudy-eyed people blinded by chemical release in Bhopal in the early 1980s. But that, I believe, is scar issue that appears after the initial injury has healed. But dead people don't heal.
What the injury looks like, before and shortly after a related death: bloodshot red, like after the swimming pool but worse in a severe (deadly) case. Chlorine causes acids, which burn less severely than an alkaline would (per this graphic and other sources), but enough to show up visually like the eyes on the left here. Compare this to eyes that simply show death (middle row) and then to the Douma victims (6 samples, and they're representative).
What the injury looks like, before and shortly after a related death: bloodshot red, like after the swimming pool but worse in a severe (deadly) case. Chlorine causes acids, which burn less severely than an alkaline would (per this graphic and other sources), but enough to show up visually like the eyes on the left here. Compare this to eyes that simply show death (middle row) and then to the Douma victims (6 samples, and they're representative).
The conclusion to draw from this is the seen victims are dead, and it's not from regular chlorine exposure. (but perhaps irregular exposure: if they were wearing goggles, for example, red eyes could be avoided even with exposure to chlorine or another caustic agent. But that, clearly, would be abnormal, and no one reported that. Oddly, there are visual clues pointing to it anyway.)
Below, the boy displaying tache noir in larger form, to note the dark spots and clouding to show he died (and had his eyes open about this wide the whole time since). We can also note the lack of red to suggest chlorine did it. But the orange stuff that wound up in his airways suggests it included blood, from inhaling chlorine or similar. So what could be different between his eyes and lungs? (note also an overall yellow color - possibly just lighting, but see below)
...In Alleged Chlorine Attacks, Images and Words
From the visual record in Syria, we could almost conclude the opposite of the expected is true - but the frequent verbal nods to eye redness show how some are aware this is what's supposed to happen. Here's a partial review of chlorine attacks …
April 21 2014, Telmines - a boy who eventually died, white eyes being rinsed for good measure, but blood in the airways (filling the suction tube with pink foam, also across his cheek - that comes up in Douma, 2018 as well. Hm. yellowish color?
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/search?q=2014+chlorine+attacks
March 16, 2015 Sarmin: Dr. Mohamed Tenari, local director of Syrian American Medical Society, US-backed director of terrorist-affiliated Sarmin field clinic, who claims he tended to the family of 6 who died "said most of the victims came in without physical wounds, but had acute respiratory problems and burning, bloodshot eyes." (Guardian)
http://theindicter.com/white-helmets-video-swedish-doctors-for-human-rights-denounce-medical-malpractice-and-misuse-of-children-for-propaganda-aims/
http://theindicter.com/white-helmets-movie-updated-evidence-from-swedishthe wearinf og masks-doctors-confirm-fake-lifesaving-and-malpractices-on-children/
https://twitter.com/Qoppa999/status/1018960526448189440
Also, Dr. Tennari is not present in these scenes, when he claims he was. He first described the victims as strangers or displaced people rom another town, then decided they were family friends he had recently visited.
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2015/06/syria-chlorine-allegations-where-was-dr.html
Aug. 2 2016 Saraqeb:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/02/chlorine-attack-syria-dozens-ill-saraqeb-idlib
Ibrahim al-Assaad, a doctor who treated the victims, describes patients "having bloodshot eyes,”
images?
Came as a real chemical attack by Islamists hit Aleppo's Old City, killing several, including soldiers and civilians. (barely noted or ignored in the MSM reports hyping the opposition-claimed attack on this day).
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Alleged_Chemical_Attack,_August_2,_2016
Aug. 19, 2016 Saraqeb: "We suspect it was chlorine because of the smell and the nature of the injuries – suffocation and burning, red eyes." https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/chlorine-filled-gas-canisters-dropped-syrias-civilian-population-rebel-held-idlib-province-1573933
Aleppo 2016 Chlorine attacks
Aug. 10 and 11: some of the many children with no engorged capillaries in the whites of their eyes, but allegedly exposed to chlorine released by the nefarious regime. You cane tell by the costume (oxygen mask).
Sept. 6:
A man found on the street alone, driven to a clinic - he has red eyes and a realistic cough - filmed by On The Ground News (OGN), by terrorist-supporter Bilal Abdul Karim. He does provide some valuable reporting of the visual kind, like this very rare evidence of chlorine actually contacting someone's eyes. It does happen. But why does it get filmed so rarely, despite all the exuberant efforts? (to be fair, I haven't really dug for all photos and videos, and am likely missing a good number. But still … why so many white eyes mixed in?)
Three of the many white-eyed children filmed at a clinic that same day, treated for the horrible chlorine exposure from that same attack, or perhaps a nearby one with even less factual basis.
Three of the many white-eyed children filmed at a clinic that same day, treated for the horrible chlorine exposure from that same attack, or perhaps a nearby one with even less factual basis.
At right is, apparently, one of the two fatalities of the Sept. 6 attack. That's a good guess, but either way, he's in an extra bad state after the chlorine attack he's shown as a victim of, not breathing anymore, and staring blankly. It ripped up his lungs, but none of it got in his eyes?
December 9: Abu Rajab, the former administrator at al-Sakhour hospital, said that he heard a thump near the entrance of the al-Hayat clinic in Kallaseh at about 8 p.m. on December 9. Soon, he said, a very strong smell started spreading in the clinic. “It quickly became very bad,” he said. “It felt like I had a fire in my chest, my eyes became red. I couldn’t breathe properly. It smelled like chlorine.”
December 9: Abu Rajab, the former administrator at al-Sakhour hospital, said that he heard a thump near the entrance of the al-Hayat clinic in Kallaseh at about 8 p.m. on December 9. Soon, he said, a very strong smell started spreading in the clinic. “It quickly became very bad,” he said. “It felt like I had a fire in my chest, my eyes became red. I couldn’t breathe properly. It smelled like chlorine.”
…
Abdallah Mahmoud, an administrator working in the al-Quds hospital, said that the hospital treated 47 injured civilians. Their symptoms included red eyes, difficulty speaking and breathing, and coughing.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/02/13/syria-coordinated-chemical-attacks-aleppo
real release in a nearby district the prior day (Dec. 8) captured on video, again by OGN
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/02/assessing-hrws-latest-chlorine-report.html
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Alleged_Chemical_Attacks,_March_25-April_3,_2017#April_3.2C_Habit
Douma, a year later: covered above, no red eyes. Four more cases from the weeks before that, both in the same besieged Eastern Ghouta area:
Jan. 30 al-Marj
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/02/14/new-visual-evidence-chlorine-gas-attacks-eastern-ghouta/
On Monday 30/01/2017 at 4:00pm Damascus time, The emergency department of Al Marj received injured civilians as a result of a poisoned gas attack (probably chlorine gas).
The number of injured was 11, this includes 3 who are in a critical health situation and they had the following symptoms:
Breathing difficulties
Eye and nasal irritation
Nausea and vomiting
The injured who came to the hospital said that the exploded bombs contained green gas with a very bad smell.
Feb. 9 Irbeen
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/02/14/new-visual-evidence-chlorine-gas-attacks-eastern-ghouta/
On Feb 9th 2017 in the morning, we received several cases that had the following symptoms: eruption, absence of consciousness, vomiting and irritation in the eye. These symptoms are the result of the chlorine gas exposure.
Feb. 25, 2018, Shifuniya:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/03/15/syrian-forces-bombard-eastern-ghouta-chemical-weapons-fourth-consecutive-time-since-beginning-2018/
"We don’t know if it’s the chlorine gas or another one. "
"...we, my family and I, started to inhale a strong and strange smell, following which I blacked out, and fainted."
Dr. Saeed Hanafi, a medical centre staff member in Douma, said to STJ:
“The injured who were taken to medical points had a chlorine-like odor, they suffered from dyspnea and the irritation of bronchus and conjunctiva (eyes)."
Kids shown in masks - one set of eyes that might be faintly pink.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/horrific-pictures-show-child-victims-of-chlorine-gas-attack-in-syria-a3775596.html
"There was a child among the injured whom we couldn’t save because he was in the centre of the targeted area the time of the attack … we initially suspected to have involved chlorine, as the child’s features and face indicate that he was suffocated..." The first boy who died, just the all white eyes (probably clouded too, but hard to tell from this view). Douma Coordinating on Facebook.
The small scrapes on his nose are explained as part of some unrelated wounds from falling debris, which isn't what killed him. "Another child named called Ahmad al-Ahmad, 10 months old, died on the morning of 1 March 2018 of dyspnea." He's shown around, app. eyes closed. A woman was said to be critically ill at first, likely died as well. https://gulfnews.com/news/mena/syria/syrian-child-suffocates-in-apparent-chlorine-attack-1.2179200
March 7, Hamouriya:
“Findings show that a basement was targeted by a rocket … whose impact caused a minor explosion sound,” Syria’s opposition directorate of health for Damascus said in a statement, adding that the substances emitted caused “coughing, red eyes and throat congestion”.
But then they decided this wasn't chlorine, just some confusion.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43300293
https://www.yahoo.com/news/dozens-treated-breathing-problems-raids-syrias-ghouta-083405551.html
"Due to chlorine attack in #EastGhouta, patients are struggling w/symptoms such as severe dyspnea, sweating, congestion of mucus membranes, severe runny nose, wheezing & conjunctival erythema," SAMS wrote on social media late Wednesday.
"The emotional trauma from these attacks can not be measured."
Dyspnea is shortness of breath. Conjunctival erythema is redness of the eye caused by dilation of the blood vessels.
Here's one story as to why they changed tune halfway through.
https://21stcenturywire.com/2018/07/02/false-flag-fail-how-syrian-civilians-derailed-white-helmets-chemical-stunt-in-eastern-ghouta/
Note also closeness in time to the Skripal poisoning in Salisbury. Something went wrong, and they tried again a month later in Douma.
...In Alleged Sarin Attacks, Images and Words
Pure, military-grade sarin is free of smell and color and caustic properties, but in Syria, a dirty kind is used that's yellow, smells foul, and like chlorine, burns the eyes and airways - this is grounds for some confusion, and other grounds have appeared, causing lots of confusion. Anyway, we should see about the same as for red eyes, and we do - a mix of possible exposure and probable non-exposure, but oddly with more realistic red seen than in the chlorine cases where people realize it should appear.
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-sarin-evidence.html
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/11/sarin-and-foul-irritants-in-syrian-cw.html
12-22-2012, Daraya: a yellow gas is reportedly released on SAA soldiers, causing 7 to die in short order. Never clarified, but likely first dirty sarin attack of the war. Eye situation unknown.
3-19-2013, Khan al-Assal - eventually confirmed as a sarin attack, clearly launched by opposition forces against SAA soldiers and primarily Shia civilians: the first widely-noted CW attack of the war. Itching is noted, suggesting the common irritant properties we would see. Red eyes are not mentioned, but likely.(UN report)
https://unoda-web.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/report.pdf
3-19-2013, Khan al-Assal - eventually confirmed as a sarin attack, clearly launched by opposition forces against SAA soldiers and primarily Shia civilians: the first widely-noted CW attack of the war. Itching is noted, suggesting the common irritant properties we would see. Red eyes are not mentioned, but likely.(UN report)
https://unoda-web.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/report.pdf
April 13, 2013, Sheikh Maqsoud, Aleppo
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2017/11/what-happened-night-of-april-1314-in.html
"those injured suffered hallucinations, severe vomiting, nose bleeding and eye burning, one of which lost eye sight." (SOHR Facebook) Policeman Zargos: "when we went inside we saw the children dead and the Kurdish police who had arrived before us were on the ground foaming something white from their mouth. Their eyes were so red.”
April 29, 2013, Saraqeb:
That Aleppo attack was allegedly delivered by grenade, dropped from a helicopter - same grenade blamed two weeks later in Saraqeb, killing Maryam Khatib. This allegedly her dilated pupil, surrounded by a sea of almost pristine white.
August 21, 2013 (Ghouta attack):
Witnesses to the Ghouta incident reported varying smells: "something like vinegar and rotten eggs" or "like cooking gas," along with "redness and itching of the eyes." (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/22/syria-chemical-weapons-eyewitness
“Then came the smell, which burned eyes and throats, like onions or chlorine”
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/world/middleeast/blasts-in-the-night-a-smell-and-a-flood-of-syrian-victims.html
eye irritation photo, from a UN report
Dec. 11/12, 2016, Uqrabiyat: "...red eyes, swollen faces, and foaming and bleeding from the mouth" (HRW)
March 30, 2017, Latamnah: "They were trembling, had extreme difficulty breathing, redness in their eyes..."
April 4, 2017, Khan Sheikhoun
A 14-year-old girl "saw an aircraft drop a bomb on a one-story building a few dozen yards away. In a telephone interview Tuesday night, she described an explosion like a yellow mushroom cloud that stung her eyes. “It was like a winter fog,” she said. (New York Times). https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/world/middleeast/syria-gas-attack.html?smid=tw-share
Many report seeing this fog, some kind of fog appears suddenly on video shot just after the allged jet attack. It's said to smell strange and foul, like sarin does here. Eye redness isn't mentioned much or at all, just the feeling (stinging/burning). As it happens, few if any red eyes are seen among those filmed dead and dying. But there may well have been a low-level release of something similar, by way of a special effect.
A surviving victim with miosis, no redness from chemical exposure, no profuse tears like you'd expect with sarin. Bright light involved, likely cause of constricted pupil. Shown to us by Shajul Islam, an active force in blurring the lines between chlorine and sarin attacks, and a spirited advocate of kidnapping and such in the name of an Islamic State, but not very smart when it comes to medical issues.
Someone else in Khan Sheikhoun with no outward signs, White Helmets media activist Anas Al-Diab. But he never died, and got a chance to tell his story, unlike those kids whom he and others spoke for. Here he is as seen just after his horrible exposure, and as he describes himself even longer after it. (credit Qoppa999). So, some of what he says on the victims' behalf is untrue, and this is just regarding his own eyes.
Harasta, 11-18-17:
Severe respiratory failure, vomiting, eyes irritation &heart acceleration
blurred vision, unconsciousness, contracted pupils, shortness of breath, nasal secretions, vomiting, and headaches.
A later UN CoI report, A/HRC/37/72, Feb. 1, addresses the claims, finding the government probably gassed the rebels a little with an organophosphate, perhaps sarin.
"a small dose of chemical agent was released on the Harasta frontline."
There had been chlorine attacks reported in the preceding days.
"At first, we thought chlorine is the gas used in the attack," two medics told them, based apparently on eye irritation and breathing problems and the precedent, with no one mentioning a chlorine-like smell. They were discharged as ok but several hours later, about 15 injured came back with the same symptoms.
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2018/03/alleged-cw-attack-in-harasta-nov-18-2017.html
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/02/syria-witness-testimony-reveals-details-of-illegal-chemical-attack-on-saraqeb/
The Syria Civil Defence said that barrel bombs containing chlorine gas had been dropped by helicopter and caused the casualties to gasp desperately for air, suffer severe irritation to their skin and eyes, vomit and collapse.
... a medic said "They couldn’t breathe, they were coughing non-stop, they had red eyes and some were vomiting severely"
Note: vomiting can occur with chlorine, but it's secondary, from too much coughing-retching. The actual nausea feeling plus widespread vomiting is more consistent with sarin, where it's one of the core symptoms (part of the SLUDGE-M syndrome). They should also have diarrhea, drooling, etc. (if genuine), but not all of that might be evident or get mentioned.
