October 7 Massacre in Israel, p. 2: Who was Behind the Kibbutz Massacres?
November 26, 2023
< Part 1: Which Israelis are "Making Up Stories?"
2A) Inside the "Be'eri Massacre": The Dagan House
The most detailed account of IDF hostage elimination in the October 7 massacre comes from a woman named Yasmin Porat, who has given at least 4 interviews.
10/15 Kan News, Haboker Hazeh interview: Israeli forces shot their own civilians, kibbutz survivor says | The Electronic Intifada 10/15 with updates: "Although it no longer appears on the Kan website, there can be little doubt about the recording’s authenticity." By October 23: "Porat's testimony mysteriously disappeared from the "Haboker Hazeh" program, leading to rampant speculation about censorship."
10/24 CNN interview, somehow omitting all the controversial details: https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/24/hostage-hamas-released-israel-ebof-sot-vpx.cnn
11/15 Kan News, Kalman Liberman program, including 2nd hand testimony from fellow survivor Hadas Dagan: https://omny.fm/shows/kan-news/4-26 - 11/25 analysis Israeli October 7 posterchild was killed by Israeli tank, eyewitnesses reveal - The Grayzone - Israeli child “burned completely” by Israeli tank fire at kibbutz | The Electronic Intifada
From these sources, here's a detailed narrative: Yasmin and her boyfriend Tal Katz weren't locals, but came for the Nova party. They had just left that when a rocket attack occurred. They took shelter in a house in Be'eri with others until they were discovered by Hamas gunmen and taken captive. They were driven to another house with yet other prisoners. There were 15 captives there total: Yasmin and Tal, the 12-year-old twins, Liel and Yanai Hetzroni and their great-aunt Ayala, and 10 other hostages, "most of them elderly kibbutz members," including house owners Adi and Hadas Dagan.
The Hamas fighters "treated us humanely," Porat said, meeting their needs and calming their fears as possible. “They did not abuse us. … No one treated us violently.” She was told and believed “The objective was to kidnap us to Gaza, not to murder us.” She says that fellow survivor Hadas Dagan told her that “There were no executions, or anything like that. At least not the people with her.”
A Hamas commander decided the IDF had already blocked the roads out of town, preventing their escape (everyone else seems to think he was mistake and they could still have escaped). He asked Yasmin to call the police, thinking that could help them get around the blockade and/or survive. "She said she made seven calls to the police during the afternoon, at the behest of the terrorists. In one of the calls, the terrorists put the frantic Liel on the phone, because they thought Porat was being too controlled in her conversation and they wanted a sobbing child to get on the call."
Two hours later, the police arrived. This time allows for a briefing on special tactics for this situation. But when they arrive, Porat says, "A gun battle takes place that our police started." 100+ shots were fired by both sides, leaving hostages and kidnappers ducking for cover, It sounds like one shot grazed Yasmin's leg, leaving just a bruise.
The commander was talking with police, wanting to surrender. Around 5:30 PM they had him strip and go outside with that Yasmin lady they spoke with. He walked over with her in front at gunpoint until the police took her and arrested him. In the CNN interview, she seems to say that other Hamas fighters had threatened to shoot the commander for ditching them like that, but for some reason they never did. She was safe, but "my boyfriend and the others are still there with 40 terrorists because just one surrendered." She never mentions the army arriving or just how it was that "no one stayed alive."
On her way out, Yasmin saw 5 or 6 hostages on the grass outside, wounded and/or just laying low "from the massacre, in the line of fire between our forces and the terrorists." Interviewer: "they could have been shot by our own forces while they were trying to eliminate the kidnappers?" Porat: "Absolutely. It's painful for me, they fired on everyone there, including the hostages." On the grass: her boyfriend Tal, another man named Tal, house owner Adi Dagan and his wife Hadas, 1-2 others.
It seems she remained on-site to observe the following events, probably hoping for Tal to be freed. She stayed involved, explaining in the 11/15 interview:
“I sat there with the commander of the unit,” Porat recalled, “and I described to him what the house looks like, and where the terrorists are, and where the hostages are. I actually drew it for him: ‘Look, here, on the lawn there are four hostages that are lying this way on the lawn. Here are two that are lying under the terrace. And in the living room there is a woman lying like this, and a woman lying like this.” Porat explained, “I told [the Israeli commander] about the twins (Yanai and Liel Hatzroni) and their great-aunt (Ayala), I didn’t see them. You know what, when I left, they were the only ones I didn’t see. I heard Liel the whole time, so I know for certain that they were there.. I tried to explain to [the commander] that from somewhere near the kitchen, that’s where I heard the screams coming from. I didn’t see her, but I heard her, and I heard where the screams were coming from. I tried to explain to them where all the hostages were.”
The timeline is a bit confused, but 2-3 hours after her release, the Israelis opted to end the standoff, perhaps using that information.
10/15: "The fighting apparently ended at 8:30 after insane crossfire. Two tank shells were fired into the house. It's a small kibbutz house, nothing big. You saw it on the news. ... and at that moment they were all killed. There was quiet, except for one survivor that came out of the garden, Hadas."
11/15: "At around 7:30 pm, after some four hours of crossfire consisting of “hundreds of thousands of bullets,” Porat peered from behind Israeli lines and observed an Israeli tank firing two shells into the small kibbutz house." Someone explained to her it was "to break the walls, in order to help purify the house.” But there was no need to enter, as the situation was ended (purified?) by those 2 shots. Everyone was "killed in the crossfire," not just possibly but "undoubtedly" killed by the Israeli side.
Yasmin says the damaged Dagan house was seen "on the news." I'm not sure which house it is, seen where ... it could be this one, from the Be'eri massacre Wikipedia page. To me this looks like 2+ impact of differing power, perhaps from tank shells (which Hamas did not have) and/or, perhaps, a powerful RPG, which they might have had.
Note: I'm not expert enough to decide exact weapon was used. Almost down the line, what could be Israeli missile could be a heavy Hamas mortar, a tank shell or maybe a heavy RPG shell, etc. Any of them could damage a building, blow in a car's roof and set it ablaze, as far as I know. Some expert analysis could help narrow down the possibilities, but for me, the evidence is mainly too ambiguous to easily pin the blame on either side for all that happened. A more expert opinion might help here.
Several houses were damaged, most of them less visibly, and most or all suffered fires like the kind that often follow such attacks, but could also have been started by Hamas trying to smoke people out of their shelters. From the Gray Zone article on events at the Dagan house, a picture of a house with consistent damage used for illustration, but that I found is specified as a different house. "Mati and Amir Weiss, the parents of kibbutz security-team member Yuval, were at their home, pictured here, when Hamas fighters burst in. He was unable to reach them in time. REUTERS /Ronen Zvulun" https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/israel-palestinians-kibbutz-attack/
Maybe it's this place? (image from around)
Dagan told Porat how the tank shells detonating hurled her in the air, leaving her "covered in her husband’s blood" and seemingly paralyzed for a few minutes. "Upon regaining consciousness, Dagan realized that the captives who had been lying on either side of her – her husband Adi Dagan and Porat’s partner, Tal Katz – had just died from tank shell shrapnel. “When I opened my eyes, I saw that my Adi is dying,” Porat recalls Dagan saying. “Your Tal also stopped moving at that point.”
Total killed: 13 hostages including 2 children, and some 40 Hamas terrorists - apparently none of them killed by Hamas terrorists. Adi Dagan was confirmed dead prior to October 9 (Times of Israel). "Tal was declared missing for several days until his body was found." His red dot placed among the deaths at the rave (Oct7map). Yanai Hetzroni was identified but Liel and great-aunt Ayala were presumed kidnapped - not just missing - as of October 26 (post - linked article now 404). Aunt Ayala was identified prior to a November 15 funeral (for her) and 'farewell ceremony" for Liel, burying some belongings in lieu of a body. Giving Up Hope, Family of 12-year Old Israeli, Missing Since Hamas Massacre, Says Goodbye - Israel News - Haaretz.com Maybe they hadn't been informed that Liel's fragmentary remains were identified on November 13 12-year-old girl missing since Oct. 7 found dead in Be'eri - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com). They were found in the wreckage of the house she was last seen in.
Over the following days, Israeli official accounts announced Liel's murder by Hamas to refresh the horror and the hate. Former PM Naftali Bennett: "Liel Hetzroni of Kibbutz Beeri was murdered in her home by Hamas monsters.” Israel on X: “All that remains of 12 year old Liel Hetzroni is ash and bone fragments. ... #HamasMassacre"
Well, 100% of the surviving witnesses disagree. Hadas Dagan confirmed to Porat that it was the IDF's tank shells and ensuing fire that turned Liel into charred pieces: “‘The girl did not stop screaming for all those hours … [but] when those two shells hit, [Liel] stopped screaming. There was silence then.” Porat concluded, “So what can you take away from that? That after that very massive incident, the shooting, which concluded with two shells, that is pretty much when everyone died.” It's not clear if the soldiers could hear Liel wailing and then the contrasting silence. But Porat says she explained all the people present and just where they were. And the police had heard from the hysterical young girl inside. And yet the IDF and everyone then pretended to have no idea, to think the girl had been somehow kidnapped away from that scene. Maybe by the time they found otherwise, they could forget that they had killed her.
That's not the whole picture at Be'eri, representing only about 10% of those killed. But it is a disturbing bit of it.
2B) Inside the Be'eri Massacre: Elsewhere
Another account comes from Tuval Escapa who, as Blumenthal explains, is "a member of the security team for Kibbutz Be’eri," who "set up a hotline to coordinate between kibbutz residents and the Israeli army" Escapa was away on business and managed this by phone, while his partner "was besieged in her home shelter at the time." She didn't survive that weekend. This account has plural "houses" shelled before it was all over, perhaps including his own.
“According to him, only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions — including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages — did the IDF complete the takeover of the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Be’eri people were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.” A growing number of reports indicate Israeli forces responsible for Israeli civilian and military deaths following October 7 attack – Mondoweiss
A quite detailed November 2 Reuters report agrees "It wasn’t until the following day, Monday, that the IDF declared the attack over," suggesting some kind of hostage situation(s), perhaps, had dragged it out for some two days. But there's no mention of how these might have resolved. Tanks aren't mentioned at all. According to this article, the "Battle of Be'eri" was fought against some 150 Hamas fighters by lightly-armed security guards (with the heavy guns locked away and the key missing on the killed commander), along with some disorganized volunteers, and army units that only came and went most of the day. Some "slow" troops arrived around 2pm, and by around 6PM, they had commenced battle. The article ends its coverage with a volunteer rescuer killed by Hamas fighters around 10am on Sunday. Some 24-36 hours or crucial events are simply omitted.
Lt Col Salman Habaka, who would later die fighting in Gaza, "was among the first Israeli troops to arrive ... and later described his part in the fighting in Be’eri in a video interview." (The Guardian) He saw it differently, or saw a different part of it, or was just sent out to contradict the above claims: “I arrived in Be’eri to see Brig Gen Barak Hiram and the first thing he asks me is to fire a shell into a house [where Hamas were sheltering],” he said. “The first question that comes to your mind is – are there hostages there? We did all the preliminary checks before we decided to fire a shell into a house. Then we went from house to house to free the hostages. " Apparently he did not fire his tank, since hostages were inside. But he was asked to, despite that fact? Instead, they went house-to-house. "And that’s how the fighting was until the evening. In the kibbutz and in the streets."
Maybe it was only after evening fell that the operation changed, and he just didn't mention that. After that, at 7:30 or 8:30 perhaps someone else followed another request to blast terrorists along 13 hostages, including children. And aside from that house, the stand off lasted 2 more days to Monday night before the final turns with more shelling of occupied homes and some 130 killed in the end.
Consider: tank commander Habaka said "as soon as people heard the rumbling of the tanks, they suddenly had a moment of security," while Yasmin Porat "described a sense of panic as she watched the tank trundle into the small community."
Some wonder if the young female tank commanders celebrated in this video were responsible, but they came from the south and fought at Sufa and Holit - one recalls being told to fire on a building with terrorists inside. She asked if there are civilians inside, and he said "I don't know. Just shoot." She says she checked, like Habaka did, found there were civilians, and used lesser means instead.
The site October7map.com does not cite these accounts in its explanation of the "Hostage Situation in Be'eri." Citing one news article, they relate how Hamas "captured around 50 civilians, some seen in "harrowing video footage ... being led barefoot along the streets to the Kibbutz dining hall. When Israeli security forces arrived at the scene, the terrorists barricaded themselves in the kibbutz dining hall, beginning an 18-hour long stand-off. With the arrival of additional Israeli security forces, the hostages were liberated and the terrorists largely neutralized."
Perhaps another 100+ were also held in other spots and later killed rather than freed. If so, this report doesn't mention it. No one's even directly refuting the alleged final turn of events, they just ignore it and focus on more pleasant episodes that keeps blame on Hamas and off of the IDF.
Same site: "The chilling aftermath of the Be'eri massacre exposed a scene of merciless brutality, with approximately 80% of the recovered bodies showing signs of torture." Perhaps 100% of that "torture" was instead caused by IDF weapons exploding. "Particularly harrowing were the accounts of a ZAKA official describing two piles of ten children each, with their hands bound together, burnt to death." However many bound kids were found bound is a number of captives Hamas probably meant to take alive to Gaza until something went wrong.
Reuters, November 2: "Reuters identified at least 42 residential buildings – nearly a quarter of those in the kibbutz – with substantial structural damage," mainly in the western Olives and Vineyard districts (a map is provided). "This is likely an undercount; only buildings with burn scars or obvious major structural damage were included." From a short drone view attached to this report:
Hidden at the far end of this view is where tanks left new tracks, as seen from a different angle in another video (at right). I didn't read the entire Reuters report, but the word "tank" doesn't appear once. It seems that all damage is assumed by Hamas, using whatever weapons, and all deaths and injuries are assumed to be their work alone.
Two soldiers and a ZAKA rescuer claim to have seen bound bodies executed with gunshots to the head, and two women disrobed as if raped. But others describe scenes likely to result from tank fire or the like. "a young person, burned beyond recognition ... and both forearms were missing. ... two children whose skulls had been crushed and had knife [shrapnel?] wounds on their bodies. Their parents lay dead nearby, he said, with similar wounds."
Stories of people shot and/or grenaded in their safe rooms appear in the Reuters report and others. these accounts are numerous, detailed, and plausible, along with the efforts to smoke people out. To kill Israeli civilians was surely allowed, if not the main plan. If that was to abduct as many as possible and get them back to Gaza, they would need to do it quickly before the IDF could rally and prevent their escape. They might have time to try brute force to get at some resistant people and encourage them to surrender. They could shoot people then offer medical aid - carrot and stick. But for the most part, they probably would not have time to engage in much rape or intricate torture or dismemberment, managing who has to watch what, and so on, as alleged.
Death toll review: Oct7map lists 85+ Murdered, 26+ Kidnapped, including 13 Kidnap Survivors (safely retuned as of 11/26), 4 Missing. Different sources give a final death toll in Be'eri of 112+, or 130+. Ha'aretz listed 99 names when I checked, including a 10-month-old girl, who was then de-listed (maybe re-added since). Other infants may have been killed and never listed. ZAKA head Yossi Landau said they recovered 280 bodies in Be'eri, 80% showing signs of "torture." Some 150 terrorists as said + 130 civilians as said = 280. That adds up pretty well. At least 10% of the civilians (13 hostages including 2 children) were almost surely killed by the IDF and not Hamas.
2C) What about the Other Kibbutz Massacres?
It's not clear if Be'eri was the exception or if events unfolded similarly in the other kibbutz attacks, but some evidence suggests others went the same way. The site October 7 map.com (https://oct7map.com/) shows the affected kibbutzim (villages) with red dots for the killed and black dots for those kidnapped clustered around them. An interesting pattern emerges.
Yasmin Porat said that it seemed like Hamas' objective was "to kidnap us to Gaza, not to murder us.” If that were the plan and it worked smoothly in any kibbutz, we would see a few deaths of security guards, a number of kidnappings, and no additional murders. If the plan was thwarted completely, then no Hamas fighters escaped, at least not with captives as planned, but sadly many civilians might wind up killed instead of whisked away.
There may be smooth examples, but it's not clear if so. Nir Yitzakh seems closest, with 7 dead including "several" defenders and 7 kidnapped. But even there a clash with the IDF was involved. Most other villages witnessed their own battles where Hamas fighters were pinned down and killed, quite likely while holed up with some their hostages just like at Be'eri.
Seven examples with notes mainly from Oct7map:
Nir Yitzhak: 14-hour ordeal (7am to 9 pm): "The kibbutz's security squad bravely confronted the attackers to safeguard the community. The head of the kibbutz's domestic security and several security squad members lost their lives during the conflict. Numerous civilians were taken hostage. Responding Lotar unit members engaged the terrorists at the kibbutz, neutralizing the majority and subduing the remainder." 7 kidnapped, 7 killed, one specified "on duty" and "several" others should be too. If 7 defenders were killed, that means 0 civilian murders to achieve these 7 abductions.
Nirim: 3 security personnel, 5 civilians killed, and just 4 kidnapped before village defenders rallied and chased Hamas out of the town long before they commenced any mass abduction or mass killing, and long before the IDF showed up. Here, perhaps Hamas unnecessarily killed 5 civilians before they were forced to stop. Or maybe they got out of town with 5 other hostages but had their car(s) hit by Apache helicopters and had to take the blame for their grisly torture and murder there on the roadside?
Alex Gandler on X: "Most houses burned completely, those that haven't been burned show signs of struggle and death." Photo: bloody handprint and explosive fragmentation marks on the same wall. Perhaps Hamas shelled people in their homes after circumventing the guards, just to be vile or because they resisted - or perhaps, as in Be'eri, this was caused after "help arrived."
Kfar Aza: Killed: 48 civilians + and 23 on duty + ~5 unnamed red dots (total ~76). Kidnapped: 20 - none returned yet. IDF arrived before Hamas left. There was a battle, after which Hamas fighters were left lying around dead - supposedly unrelated to the damaged and burned homes and killed civilians, including "At least 40 babies, some beheaded" in this one village alone (as some claimed) - Kfar Aza kibbutz attack: Children, women, elderly 'butchered' in Hamas attacks on border communities, IDF says | CNN
Limited Abduction Zone mapped: Consider if the plan was to abduct and not murder people, and it went smoothly in some villages, you'd see a few red dots for the security personnel there but no more, and quite a few black dots. That might apply in some places, but what stands out is how black dots fail to appear outside certain zones hugging the Gaza border, marked out here in blue ...
At the north end, NetivHaAsara and Zikim beach were perhaps both perhaps isolated after strikes on the Erez crossing, and wound up all killing, no abductions. To the east, Ofakim as noted, Netivot and Yakhini, and at least the police station in Sderot all wound up bloody failures, if kidnapping was the plan. The police station apparently was a "Hannibal" situation, and these other village massacres might have been the same.
By this, Nir Oz had the best survival rate. The peace activist Yocheved Lifshitz was abducted there, along with her activist husband. Maybe it was with her help that the kidnapping process went extra-smooth so many had left before "help arrived" and finished off the stragglers. It did reportedly take until mid-afternoon for the army to arrive. Maybe in other places, the urge to resist and hide helped drag the process out so no one got out alive. Hmm.
We can't prove the full truth, and in its violent incursion Hamas is sure to have killed a number of civilians past the soldiers and security guards they would need to kill. Some of those may have resisted with guns, while others just by refused to be quickly abducted. But from the available evidence, a sizeable portion and perhaps the vast majority of them might have been "Hannibalized" by the IDF rather than slaughtered by Hamas.
Note: It's not clear if any Hannibal-type endings were improvised or on orders. But the hostage situations that dragged on for about 2 days and then ended suddenly on Monday suggest a centralized decision to wrap this up, get a final and large death toll rife with "Hamas torture," and commence using that to justify flattening north Gaza.
Finally, we have the 200 Hamas fighters initially counted as murdered Israeli civilians (see part 1). They were found mangled and charred in close proximity to charred and mangled Israelis they had taken hostage. Some of these 200 fighters may have been toasted in individual combat or in their own vehicles, etc. Others would be driving hostages who would end up the same, or holding them inside buildings the IDF blasted. 20% of them should be the 40 or so killed in gun battles or by tank fire at the Dagan house, along with 13 hostages. They all wound up the same way, at the same place ... logically, for the same reason.
But the civilians, we're told, were hacked into tiny pieces and torched, and their houses perhaps blasted with RPGs, all before the army ever showed up to ... kill a bunch of terrorists without having to blast or burn anything? And then they forgot about it? Didn't they even have some idea how many they had killed, to subtract from the death toll? Of course they did. But the supposed lapse allowed Israel to claim the highest possible death toll early on, when it mattered most in forming opinions. Later, they revise it, brag about their transparency, and studiously ignore the lesson - the IDF probably mangled and charred ALL those people.
On the map above, one might notice the big red blob of deaths at the Re'im/Nova rave/electronic music festival - and the roads leading from it - some 364 deaths and just a few successful kidnappings in this open, sprawling killing field. What happened there? That's the topic of part 3.
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