last update April 2, 2012
<< New Witness List Link, April 2 - 66 (alleged) escapee entries, at least three of them down to one man (but still separate stories, so listed separately). Also, 24 witnesses of other types.
Notes, April 2: I'm proud to have started this testament to skepticism on September 2, less than a week after news of the massacre first surfaced. It grew, as did the discussion. New comments stopped taking on this thread in January - at 207, it had gotten full. Also, I accidentally deleted the post content around then. I had the info elsewhere, and was still finding new stuff, which continued development mostly offline.
After that, I started a separate post for further comments, and later re-vamped the witness list, which is now posted here (same link as above, not fully complete ATM) and the sources previously included here are expanded at this post to cover the witnesses and everything in the shed massacre report. Plenty of fresh comments space at either link. Nothing here except the somewhat valuable comments.
After that, I started a separate post for further comments, and later re-vamped the witness list, which is now posted here (same link as above, not fully complete ATM) and the sources previously included here are expanded at this post to cover the witnesses and everything in the shed massacre report. Plenty of fresh comments space at either link. Nothing here except the somewhat valuable comments.
witness 10 is Muneer Masoud Own,33 See also this video of Arwa Damon at Dailymotion.
ReplyDeleteThanks, mate. I caught the earlier comment, and appreciate the tip - we aren't allowed to watch this, or some other, CNN International videos over here in the US. :)
ReplyDeleteThe other, I am adding as I type. Filed the 28th after all, huh? That's swift work if they had the shed cleared out before the sun set on the 28th. Because her images show it emptied, of 150-ish burnt corpses, she thought, and there's a fresh patch of full-on flame that wasn't there earlier in the day.
Do the images from the Daily motion video line up with what was shown for the September broadcast? Or did she make two visits, I wonder?
It is interesting that Orla Guerin of the BBC ends her piece on the shed thus:
ReplyDelete"We know now that this warehouse compound was the location where a BBC team was held in March.
During their detention they were beaten and subjected to mock executions. One member of the team, BBC technician Chris Cobb Smith, returned to the scene on Sunday.**
He identified the cell alongside the warehouse where the team had been held, and terrorised.
"We spent most of the night in that cell," he said.
"I must have watched every second tick by. We definitely heard people being beaten, and moved around in the compound. I think if it had been later on in the conflict, things may have turned out very differently for us."
Local people say the area around the Khamis Brigade Headquarters is a killing ground. We were told that human remains had already been recovered in several locations and removed for burial.
When we visited one site, behind a mosque, we saw fresh burn marks on the ground where bodies might have been torched
As residents begin to reclaim their neighbourhoods, and the opposition take control of more of the regime's compounds, the fear is that more atrocities will come to light.
Libya's National Transitional Council (NTC) estimates that between 57,000 and 60,000 men were arrested by Col Gaddafi's regime in the past six months. Around 10,000 have been freed.
The rebels are now asking, with increasing concern, where are the others?"
** Sunday August 28.
I don't now what the BBC were playing at, but their Radio podcast identifies this shed compound as being in Ayn /Ein /Ain Zara, which is east of Tripoli centre - nowhere near Salahaddin/Yarmouk etc. One gets the feeling that as there is a prison there, well documented, Cobb-Smith might have been at Ayn Zara? Only he and his two companions know.
DeleteThe description of Cobb-Smith as a is interesting. He apparently spent 19 years in the Royal Artillery, was a UN weapons inspector in Iraq,leading Concealment Investigation Teams alongside Scott Ritter.Ritter says he had served in a Surface to Air batallion. So I would think Cobb-Smith was doing the protection work for the journalists trying to get into Zawiya. Cobb-Smith very quickly got a Press Freedom Award in April 2011 alongside the other two.(from 3.42 onwards) where he says he has been working in conflict environments for 35 years..."the worst day of my life..."
ReplyDeleteThe arrest, detention and torture was reported by Peter Beaumont reporting from Tripoli in the Guardian, 9 March 2011
Taken back to Tripoli under armed guard, the three men were taken to a military barracks, as Cobb-Smith explains: "I thought it was a good sign we were going to a legitimate barracks, it was a compound with an eagle on the gate, but we went past the front gate down a back street.
"There was a building down the side, attached to the barracks and not behind the perimeter wall. It was a dirty scruffy little compound about 100 metres square."
Most chilling was what the men could see in the middle of the compound, a large metal cage. Once again Killani was immediately assaulted, knocked to the ground by four or five men who, when he was on his knees, cocked their rifles as if to shoot him. The three men were then placed in the cage."
Next, Killani was taken into what he thought was a guardroom. "[It was] plain concrete with a heavy door. They took me inside and left me alone for a few minutes and then they started. After 15 minutes they were hitting me and kicking me very hard, the worst since I arrived, they put cuffs on my legs. They put three layers over my face, something like a surgical hat, the thing a nurse would wear but over my face.
"I was on the floor on my side, hands and feet cuffed, lying half on a mattress, and they were beating me. They were saying I'm a spy working for British intelligence, they asked me about the $400 and £60 and some dinars I was carrying. They asked if I was given the money from the intelligence department I worked for."
"I could hear screams," recalled Koraltan. In the meantime Cobb-Smith had managed to discreetly call the BBC at their hotel with a phone he had hidden, and alerted them to the seriousness of their situation......
...The next morning, after a frantic effort by the BBC's team to locate the men and secure their release, they were taken to another barracks.
More about the compound cage, the guard room, the mattresses in this BBC 9 March interview with the three here
A Guardian commenter,TVwriter wrote
"How nice to start the day with an expert view. No, you're quite right, he was making the whole thing up as were the other two BBC Arabic service guys. They weren't beaten up. They didn't see other prisoners beaten up and their ribs broken. They weren't subject to mock executions. What happened to them wasn't exciting enough, so Chris Cobb-Smith decided to sex up his account by embellishing a detail. In any case they probably weren't BBC reporters but Western spies. Thanks for putting us all right."
I see no other internet reference to Cobb-Smith revisiting the warehouse on 28 August. (which would have been quick work). On the 24th August post , we read of Critical Muslims the security consultant Cobb-Smith was at the launch of Arabs.com by Kuwaiti internet entrepreneur Thunayan Khalid al-Ghanim.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Chris C-S returning to the scene on Sunday (Aug 28), becuase Guerin was writing on the 29th): your timeline says
ReplyDeleteAug 28 - First media footage of the site. That would mean Cobb-Smith was among the first to see the warehouse.
It doesn't quite add up, not least because the page was last updated at 05.34 hrs on Monday 29 August!
Le Figaro, 28 August 2011, also found Mabrouk Abdallah, quoted in the YouTube video description of the shed and witnesses by 123VivaAlgerieNew,ليبيا مذبحة قاعدة اليرموك Libya Massacre de la base de Yarmouk en Libye uploaded 28 August. At 1.12 one hears and sees the prominently placed pole or broomstick being thrown aside by the nervous man in black and pale blue shirt who is talking into a mobile phone.
ReplyDeleteThe same user shows alleged Mercenaries from Sudan ,etc being interrogated, uploaded 24 August.
A good Al Jazeera video of the yard and "prison" is shown by Libyanym,uploaded 29 August, fronted by Zeina Khodr, reporting on the 150 bodies found at the Yarmouk Base (the second biggest in Tripoli of the Khamis brigade) . The shed seems to be inside the base.
"...relatives have been gathering here waiting for DNA samples to be taken....some of them have told us that they are sure their relatives were in this makeshift jail...they were picked up by Gaddifi's Forces, some a few days ago other weeks ago and others months ago really..." "Graves" are seen to be exhumed (actually diggers strategically placed, holes dug) said to contain Gaddafi's soldiers who of course had refused to take orders.
Sorry,123ViaAlgerieNew Yarmouk video here
ReplyDeleteZeina Khodr on Abu Salim district violence here,uploaded from Al Jazeera by Libyanym on 26 August.
ReplyDeleteYouTube user assomood showed a 29 August uploaded video from a TV newsreel - Al Samoud - of the storming of the Barracks at Yarmouk. Actually, it looks deserted and there is much damage already. tripolirebels showed it on 30 May apparently after a NATO bombing raid.
ReplyDeleteThat seems to be awesome stuff I'll want to chew over soon. In the meantime, this seems to be the spot to ask for input.
ReplyDeleteWikipedia on the Khamis Brigade has this:
On 21 August, the Khamis Brigade headquarters 26 kilometres (16 mi) west of Tripoli was overrun by rebel forces as they made a major push towards the capital, allowing rebels to capture large stores of weapons.[16] At this date, the Khamis Brigade were reported to have killed 17 prisoners in a makeshift prison near Gragur in Tripoli.[17] On 23 August 2011, the Khamis Brigade killed around 50 prisoners in a Tripoli warehouse and then set fire to the warehouse.[18]
[16] points to Fox News, and thence this AP report of August 21.
An Associated Press reporter with the rebels rapidly advancing toward Tripoli saw them take over the base of the Khamis Brigade, 16 miles west of Tripoli. After a brief gunbattle, Gadhafi's forces fled what was once a major symbol of the regime's power.
[...]
Inside the base, hundreds of rebels cheered wildly and danced, raising the rebel flag on the front gate of a large, gray wall enclosing the compound. They seized large stores of weapons, driving away with truckloads of whatever arms they could get their hands on. One of the rebels carried off a tube of grenades, while another carted off two mortars.
[...]
Inside the large, open compound filled with eucalyptus trees were three gigantic wooden crates labeled "Libyan Armed Forces." They were loaded with large-caliber ammunition for anti-aircraft guns.
Another report (perhaps the Fox one?) mentions rebels citing a traitor on the inside who opened the base to them.
Yarmouk seems to be 10-12 miles due south of city center. 16 miles west lines up better with the Mayah area. Any chance however this was the same base with the same walls and eagle gate? This is seeming more of a secondary base now, perhaps?
Per your last comment, those videos will help make sure we've got the right spot (I'm presuming so). That "storming" is clearly not that. Either they'd taken it, left a while and weren't sure when they came back, or else they're acting like they're just now conquering it. It looks stupid.
ReplyDeleteNew witnesses, two:
ReplyDeletehttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/Retreating-Gaddafi-forces-killed-detainees-say-survivors/articleshow/9775095.cms
Ahmed Mohammed, 25, also said he survived the massacre and told a similar story. Neither knew how many had been killed nor how and when the bodies had been burned.
Amnesty International spoke to another survivor, Hussein al-Lafi, who said three of his brothers were killed that day.
"They (the guards) immediately opened fire, and I saw one of them holding a hand grenade. Seconds later, I heard an explosion, followed by four more. I fell on the ground face down. Others fell on top of me and I could feel their warm blood ... People were screaming and there were many more rounds of fire."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMXckpytwtE
ReplyDeleteThis answers my question above with a "no." Crawford, Sky News, Aug.21, at the Khamis base. Different entrance, on-screen says "near Mayah"
Incidentally, I have taken a few minutes comparing satellite imagery
with videos and the areas don't match. To be the sameplace, we'd need new buildings just north of the compound, and a new crossroad there, a new gate structure, new wall probably, a large expansion to the south, a large new building inside, northeast of the entrance when facing in, new trees and different layout inside with more paved roads, and the highway outside re-done to curve to the east around the base's southern end. And another gate down there.
I think there's a mix-up somehow and the spot isn't located yet.
I suppose it's premature to call Wikimapia wrong on the locale, but so far I'm just not seeing the match. I located the final victim outside the shed, of the eight, and mapping out that area-likewise no match with the satellite imagery.
ReplyDeleteI missed quite a few things in my first passes here. Some possible new witnesses in that VivaAlgiere video...basesball cap guy, weeping near the end, a guy to his left, to his right. Survivors? The man earlier in the video weeping over the executed black "mercenary" - a survivor? Whaddya you guys think?
And witness AM Halim had the shortest entry here, butMr.Halim has the most insane account yet. I had missed this doozy:
http://feb17.info/news/children-among-180-slaughtered-in-tripoli
The slaughter took place on Tuesday at the al-Yarmouk military base in the suburbs of Tripoli, according to the survivor, Abdulatti Musbah Haleem. Gadhafi troops and Tuareg mercenary fighters attacked a group of 200 prisoners with rifles, machine guns and hand-grenades, he said
One of the guards was from Zliten and I knew him. He said he would unlock the door and all we had to do was undo the latch and then we could escape. "We undid the door. The first of us went out and were met with a hail of bullets. We ran back inside [...] After the firing stopped he and about 30 others ran out through a hole they had made in the hangar wall.
Wow.
Ha! I called it. Wikimapia has it wrong. The Yarmouk base is northeast of there. Look across the 15 giant crop circles, just 1 km east of the top row, at the curve in al Hadhbah Road. Right cross-roads, gate structure, wall dipping further from the road to the south, covered things out front, built-up interior and-are my eyes deceiving me, or does the current Google maps imagery show the bombing damage within?
ReplyDeleteSee if this works.
I didn't spot the shed area just yet, but all reports say it's adjacent to this eagle-gate place, right? I'm making a map of that, and will sharethese location details in a new post soon.
Plus this one will need split into a huge witness list and a big analysis. Three more witness / survivors:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/08/29/libya-rebels-imprisoned-in-baking-shed-before-being-gunned-down-and-burned-alive-115875-23379749/
“I remember one of the soldiers looking at me and trying to shoot. But something happened, either his gun was jammed or he ran out of ammunition. He walked away to get another gun and I ran to the other side of the container and hid behind an empty gas canister. That’s when they poured petrol in and set it alight. They were trying to hide evidence but people were still alive. I could hear them scream.
It just NEVER ENDS! Luckily I'm back up to handling it,just not other things that don't fascinate me quite like this.
Not a direct witness, but also UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon has visited the place and gave this comment:
ReplyDelete“I was deeply shocked by my visit to an agricultural warehouse in the Khallital-Ferjan neighbourhood of Tripoli where elements of the Gaddafi regime had detained civilians in inhuman conditions, had subjected some to torture and had massacred as many as they could and burned their bodies."
The statement is from a leaked UN report which according to The Independent also reveals torture, lynchings and abuse by the militias in post-Gaddafi Libya. The murky Khamis Brigade Shed Massacre seems to be the most important war crime of the old government they can present in this report...
There's a twitvid upload of Alex Crawford from 11 hrs GMT in Al Mayah - 27 km from the centre of Tripoli and 10 km from the 27th Gate. Uploaded by emmaomo The 27th Gate is the western doorwar to Tripoli. She makes no mention of a large base in this video, but meets an "air force defector".
ReplyDeleteFelix, thanks for the supplemental. It may figure into something.
ReplyDeletePeet: Oh, the Moon quote, and that report, is something I'll want to include in my master list. If indeed this "seems to be the most important war crime of the old government they can present in this report..." then it'snot looking good. It's not as bad as somecases, but toomany witnesses this time and it's panning out not much better than The PentaCon (google it - a 9/11 video I helped debunk). I'm sure I'll be continuing to hammer away at this case for a while.
Euronews was also on the scene of the shed massacre behind the Katiba. Mustafa Beg reported at 11hrs, local time, CET, 28 September More than 50 bodies found in Tripoli warehouse
ReplyDeleteYet more witnesses are dragged up:
Khaled Khalef Khebir says his brother Abdulkhalim is one of the dead.
“They disappeared five months ago and had been transferred from one place to another,” another man explained.
Some believe that up to 150 people were killed after apparently being held in small cubicles at the site. It is unclear how many may have been civilians.
“They kept them inside. They gave them a bottle to have his toilet and they gave them a plate to eat, food to eat,” one man explained.
I can't find any video footage of Beg yet.
Euronews did have footage the previous day of bodies being buried in a mass grave, some in sheeting, some wearing clothes - very odd scene at 1.10 in this video,Rush to bury bodies in Tripoli
Leaked UN report reveals torture, lynchings and abuse in post-Gaddafi Libya ,Independent, London, Thursday 24 November 2011.
ReplyDeleteThe district is variously KHELET FERJAN,KHALIDA FERJAN or KHELLET FERJAN. Arabic:
ReplyDeleteخلة فرجان It was also visited by Der Spiegel on August 29:Warehouse of Horror - Evidence of a Massacre Found Near Tripoli
by Clemens Höges in Khellet Ferjan, Libya,whose chatty witness is Abdulatif Rafaii, 42, but others interviewed include Ali Boukhatwa and survivor Moftar Abdallah of Zlitan
Al Furjan was bombed by NATO uploaded by Truth17Feb on 19 June. further video here from Libyatears, 18 June.
Khellet Farjan is also the label for Video of bodies in the ditch, uploaded by 17022011Libya جثت أمام معسكر 32 خلة الفرجان 27-8-2011 on 29 August.
Damn... at near twenty, I hoped I finally had ALL the witnesses we heard from. But something tells me they claim all eight of the surrounding bodies as escapees, plus we'll hear from 30 or more living ones. 38 escapees should be interesting to see laid out.
ReplyDeleteAfter I get back from this Thanksgiving break, and do some other things, I'll be updating again.
Interestingly ,Clemens Höges was in Benghazi in early March and got an interview with Brigadier General Abdulhadi Arafa who ordered his officers to stay in the barracks and only shoot if shot at.
ReplyDeleteSee , Spiegel Online, 4 March 2011.
Hoeges also interviews a lawyer, Khalid al-Saji,chairman of the Libyan Bar Association (Abdul Hafez Ghoga** of the NTC is a past president), who apparently met Gaddafi on 6 February 2011 regarding a constitution and reforms. Al-Saji leaves no other internet presence in this spelling form. Strange... Who/where is Al-Saji??
**"The trial was a political matter, not a legal matter. There was no clear evidence, as the whole world knows. All the Libyan people, all Arab people, are upset by this judgment" Ghoga in 2002 on Meghahi and Lockerbie, 14 March 2002....
Spiegel Online article here.
ReplyDeleteYes, those witnesses are piling up... it all sounds like a load of hocum.
As a side issue, where on earth is Alex Crawford in that Sky video, Alex Crawford reporting from Khamis Army Base, Tripoli 21/8/2011 ? That lever arch file is a joke! (Those crazy lamp standards ought to identify the location....)
ReplyDeleteIncidentally CNN's Sara Sidner shows the Eastern Gate of the Khamis on the evening of 23 August,Inside Gadhafi's Compound
Interesting comments here at #56 by canauk onwards regarding BBC coverage of the Shed Massacre (alleged) by Martine Croxall. See also #58.
ReplyDeleteIn the Telegraph VideoCharred bodies discovered in farm building near Tripoli there is also smoke still rising at about 0.29. The video accompanies the report by Gilligan and Spencer from 21.13 hrs BST, Human slaughterhouse discovered in Tripoli
ReplyDeleteNotice too at 1.01 in the video someone with blocked out (red) face getting into the back of a black FWD car. Someone who ought not to have been there. Why??
I think it may help to review the information of the escape of Gaddafi and his family. One young witness (bodyguard) said that the whole family met at that military compound before heading out of the city. It would have been around the 20th or so. That part of the city was not seeing fighting at that time. They were still trying to make their way through the city. The time of the massacre is when this area would have fell to the rebels. Who were really the victims? Lots of questions... burning was not the army's MO...it was however that of the rebels. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteFelix - thanks for reminding me of the Cobb-Smith story. I'll need to include that in the location article. He does seem to describe the same place months back. Part of why it was selected for this job, I suspect.
ReplyDeleteThe Crawford Sky video should be at around al Mayah. A little searching plus the label I see now - suggests that is about here.
That Canauk is a sharp tack - even on the 28th aware the hospital victims were clearly loyalists. Responses, encouraging.
The face on video, later.
Eyes Wide Open, that's a good idea. I will start another empty post and if you don't mind, could you repeat that there? And maybe expand on it until I get around to filling the post?
ReplyDeleteAlso, Felix, The Spiegel article had some very interesting parts, where the writer speculates a bit differently than most. You have the wrong link, but so do I after managing to cite it. Fixing now.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,783020,00.html
Many of the charred skeletons lie next to and in front of the door.
Yep. I a pile. Tossed from a truck bed at the doorway.
An alternative explanation, however, would be that the rebels massacred their prisoners on Friday evening after the battle and tried to pin the crime on Gadhafi's forces. But on Saturday evening, one of the bodies lying outside was swarming with thousands of tiny maggots, which would be impossible if the man had only been killed the day before.
Indeed - I suspect both the Aug 27 and Aug 28 seizure might be competing covers for an earlier yet taking -prior to both the burning and mass execution.
Oh no, here's another report...
ReplyDeleteJulian Reichelt reported for Bild Zeitung, 28 August 2011:
Muftar Abdallah Aslitni(45, a teacher, sat in the shed for 6 days - unbelievably hot. (takes off jumper and shows healed marks) - nothing to eat, no water (!!!) suddenly the door opened to reveal a soldier who started shooting..a few tried to run away...they were shot in the head...I pretended to be dead...and saw how the soldiers set fire to the shed.
Another survivor is interviewed,:
Fatallah Abdullah Al Ashter 70, weakened and emaciated from his imprisonment."I was arrested with my three sons at his house. Two of them were shot here, I don't know where the third is. When they wanted to kill us, I hid under a car,so I survived." As he crouched under the vehicle, Gaddifi's soldiers returned to make sure everybody was dead. "those who were still alive were shot"
Allegedly.
Fatallah, the guy with the big teeth (1.53 in the Bild video) is Orla Guerin's witness No.1
ReplyDeleteThe guy talkng off his shirt (different wounds this time0 is Mabrouk Abdullah (witness No 2)
No 1 points underneath the Japanese UD truck, but the text says car not truck. The black meat wagon, a converted armoured security cash carrier, is neatly positioned for the gullible press, no doubt bussed out from the Rixos Hotel together, specially brought in to show one of the eight standing room only compartments (1.43 onwards in the video)
CANAUK on Twitter:
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/#!/CANAUK
Blog:
http://canauk.wordpress.com/
The Sky TV "exclusive" TV item is better seen here in this same ( better quality too) Sky Video uploaded by liarpoliticians on 29 August, Libyan war crimes, people masacred (sic) (28Aug11) which does label the witness Salim Rajip at 1.34, who is witness 6 and probably a variant on witness 5 too. Is that the Irish Tripoli commander roaming around in the background in red and white hooped shirt and army trousers?
ReplyDeletePetri - thanks for the links. A very interesting and perceptive blogger from a Conservative perspective. In the Libyan civil war in the UK there was no left-right split, all mainstream politicians and press couldn't just get enough blood on their hands, quite unlike Iraq.
ReplyDeleteI though "only one news source had the loyalist description readily available, and that was the CBC's reporter... oh. Well, the rest of us are catching up on them. Might drop a line...
ReplyDeleteFinally a second appearance for old Fathallah.I thought he was worth more than one showing. Added clarity on "Dr.Rajub/Rajip". More confirmation that Mabrouk and Mufti are the same, and too prolific.
No update right now,but these will go in.
Actually, eyes wide open,I'm not sure how to go about such a post. "The Flight of the Gaddafi Caravan?" Or if the issue is mainly about rebel massacres, then the post I just put up could cover it. The burning, however, to me suggests what it does to most-they were bombed, which is its own kind of thing, but not a rebel massacre thing.
ReplyDeleteLast thing - just rewatching the CNN International VideoCaptives executed in Libya, again with Muneer Own which isn't available in US (your first comment above).
ReplyDeleteThe Screen title is now MOUNIR OWN,rather than Muneer) at 0.25. For completion, he was picked up by Gadaffi forces (reason unknown) in early August. He says (transcript read by Damon) :
"My brother and I were in the street they grabbed us and blindfolded us and cuffed us...the detainees ranged in age from 17 to 70" Mounir says (how would he know?? Oh, they all asked each other during starvation to pass the time)..they were beaten, penned up like animals...and in their last days deprived of food and water..he says he survived by dreaming of freedom...early last week he thought that day had come
At 2.12 the highly professorial looking Bashir Own,(no relation), with beard, receding hair line and John Lennon spectacles is checking the bagged body parts, like builders' waste, onto the back of a truck.
" so we have some papers..." (shows handful of paperwork - from where?)..the ID of people from all over Libya...Do you know why these men who were here (in the paperwork) were detained?"
"..some of them for nothing just to take Gadaffi for ours(??)...just to raise the new flag with the new , the different colours not the green flag... (hastily points to "new flag" conveniently handed by Own's assistant). I get the feeling that Damon is wearing a face mask not because of the smell, but becaue she is laughing at the performance of Mr Own behind it.
If it was a bombing then why was the building still intact? Won't the roof or wall have a big hole in it? I am no expert and really do not know how to go about this, but I think if the family had met there before their escape then some of the guards or soldiers who were left behind to continue the fight might have been captured and 'persuaded' to give information. Evidence from across the city was that in the first week of fighting they were not collecting prisoners.... that came after the dust settled. Once the city fell. They told the people that they wanted change, democracy and it was time to work together. Those with the former government that stayed in the city then started to be rounded up.
ReplyDeleteFelix: Mr. Own is the guy visible in two spots in the VivaAlgiernew video, correct? He stands out as someone I suspect of managing this disinfo camapign, just from his face and demeanor. He's Bashir Own, one of the "voulnteers" who's spoken up then? Interesting...
ReplyDeleteFirst, this is Tripoli. It's getting a little big and easier to get mixed-up, but I thought the gathering/escape thing was Sirte?
As far as the bombing, the base was bombed, and some buildings south of it, per satellite images that oddly show the damage. Not everything in it was hit, and not this shed just east of it. That does raise an interesting point though. I've wondered why they would chose to hold prisoners off-base. Securing them would be harder. BUT it does prevent a headache for NATO, having them bombing a compound with 150 prisoners inside. So they were held off-base, the story goes. That's my suspicion on why they dumped the shattered remains of the base's defenders there.
Second part onbv. for Eyes Wide Open
ReplyDeleteFelix's link is not working so here is a link to the CNN video with Arwa Damon:
ReplyDeleteDamon reports: Captives executed in Libya August 29th, 2011
The video is interesting as it gives a high quality view of the compound and some of the surroundings. Is it true that you are not able to see this in the US?
We still have not figured out what was the original use of this compound and when and if it was converted to a makeshift prison. My guess is that it was some kind of car repair shop or depot. This would explain the row of cars parked or left on the lot as seen on the 2011 satellite image. It would also explain the presence of the extra set of alloy wheels with tires used for igniting the bodies.
How very convenient for BBC technician (same etymology as "technical?") Chris Cobb Smith to identify the compound as the same place where he was held captive in March. True or not, I see nothing on the site that would indicate that it has been adapted to hold prisoners for long periods of time.
Petri - I think Cobb-Smith is describing it accurately in March 2011,but the rest of his story is frankly unbelievable. Or had he just see it from the outside? NATO,one imagines, would have pretty good images of every building in Libya. (We were detained "there" so we can use it for propaganda later - is that a credible scenario???) If I were taking the journalists in for interrogation, I wouldn't let them be staring out of the window at the local wildlife and architecture. Too much influence of the Ipcress File methinks.
ReplyDeleteStrange connection with this shed here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/7687/bbc-arabic-report-imam-musa-sadrs-remains-buried-o
http://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/7687/bbc-arabic-report-imam-musa-sadrs-remains-buried-o
20 October 2011 - the first report by Carol Maher is the more interesting, and implies that this is where a Shia cleric, Imam Musa Sadr or Al-Sadr was buried in 1978, courtest of inside info from Belhaj....
BBC journalist Feras Kilani was preparing a report about a farm where Moammar Gadhafi’s forces had detained and beat him up along with the BBC news team that was trying to reach the strife-torn western city of Zawiya in March.
Kilani was surprised during the shooting of the documentary that a special security unit burst into the area with equipment set to discover mass graves....
Kilani was accompanied by Cobb-Smith. Again, it doesn't quite make sense, as the farm is right behind the Khamis, so what was Kilani preparing a report on there in March?
However, CNN reported a quite different story on 9 March
The three -- Feras Kilani, Goktay Koraltan and Chris Cobb-Smith -- described how Libyan authorities seized their cameras and other equipment Monday at a checkpoint six miles south of Zawiya, a scene of heavy fighting between government and rebel forces.....
As Safr reported it slightly differently:
BBC Arabic’s reporter Feras Kelani was preparing a report last March on a farm where Sadr was once held hostage and tortured by the Pro-Gaddafi forces.
During the shooting, the channel crew was surprised at the sight of a special security unit coming into the scene with dogs and special equipment to detect burials.
The unit has tried to prevent the crew from shooting and told them that they are tasked with finding bodies buried in the farm, which is located 20 kms south the Libyan capital.
The BBC reporter said that the farm, on which he was conducting his report, contains bodies that he believes they belong to symbols of the Libyan Opposition and African figures.
The second report doesn't say the farm was where the crew were held.
The cleric is also known as Sayyid Musa Al Sadr,founder of the Amal Shia movement in Lebanon as seen,e.g. in this recently uploaded YouTube video and in whom there is suddenly a lot of interest....
Sorry,I forgot the link to the Carol Maher Report: Imam al-Sadr’s Body Might be in a ‘Farm’ in Libya for Radio Sawt Beirut International.
ReplyDeletePetri -that version does play, thanks. Doesn't say International, presuming it's the same edit, or similar.
ReplyDeleteFelix:
20 October 2011 - the first report by Carol Maher is the more interesting, and implies that this is where a Shia cleric, Imam Musa Sadr or Al-Sadr was buried in 1978, courtest of inside info from Belhaj....
This shed compound? Is that the guy? Lebanon's still pissed over it,motivated them to put "no-fly" up to the Arab League? Buried here, where the Khamis brigade defenders were burned? Insanity. Long since exhumed and taken to the desert, of course. (page isn'tloading here... further comments if youwant tohelpwrite a section, best submittedto the base location post, where I'll be adding some things later)
The CNN report is something else-some weird parts I don't trust. I don't like to jump to calling stories fake, but it could well be. I've seen shadier. Anyway, it's in the media, perhaps more than I thought, and it's not inside the compound NATO had bombed. Perfect spot to seed this myth in what otherwise does look kind of like a onetime farm building used mostly for low level automotive work.
Keep up the genius stuff all...
Bashir Own is not who I was thinking of. That was the young long-haired guy with John Lennon glasses.
ReplyDeleteAdam - Mr Own the elder is seen in this full video of Arwa Damon at 2.05 approx, thanks to a TV Screen save by Canadian Coolins335
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/user/Coolins335#p/u/375/gdd-HvS3oe8
Ignore last comment - Petri's CNN shows it too.
ReplyDeleteFor the Shia Cleric, Sawt report, - try
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sawtbeirut.com/lebanon-news/report-imam-al-sadr%E2%80%99s-body-might-be-in-a-%E2%80%98farm%E2%80%99-in-libya/
@Petri:
ReplyDeleteIn Susan Ormiston's video for CBC,
she says "in a small warehouse used to store animal feed" at 0.48. The low brick walls look like pens for pigs,perhaps. Nobody else seems to pick up that point.
Ormiston does a set piece on CBC Video (upper one) from inside the warehouse, batting away flies , article posted 13.40 ET,,28 August. Her compound video is shot during the morning, with a much quieter compound vehicular wise. See also photo by Derek Stoffel, CBC, on the page ,which shows a rear view of the dead black man by the toppled wall.
"On Sunday morning, Ormiston and Stoffel drove close to the military compound where reporters had heard of the latest allegations of atrocities.
"When we arrived at what looked like a commercial area just off a main road, Libyan men were walking around, covering their faces with cloths and shirts — anything they could find," Stoffel said.
The charred remains of dozens of Libyans were discovered inside this building south of Tripoli. The charred remains of dozens of Libyans were discovered inside this building south of Tripoli. Derek Stoffel/CBC
He counted the charred remains of at least 26 men.
"Their blackened skulls and spines were all you could see," Stoffel said. "The stench was overpowering. Some had to leave the room, choking."
So, CBC is there on the 28th.
Ormiston says "rumours" abounded. Surely, because several news crews had already visited the previous day, it was fact?
Not pigs, obviously for Libya. But perhaps cattle, sheep. Or for the zoo? who knows. I wonder how Ormiston knew.
ReplyDeleteTracey Shelton wrote for GlobalPost, Middle East
ReplyDeleteLibya: Where are the 50,000 missing prisoners? The grisly discovery of 50 charred bodies has fueled fearsposted August 29, 2011 09:39 (Time zone?), text accompanied by photos by Patrick Baz (AFP) (see e.g. page 2,photo 3)
She finds one of 23 known survivors
"Aamir Benowen, 26, was among an estimated 160 prisoners detained in the compound. He had been captured three months before from his home in Tripoli but says to this day he does not know why he was arrested. Benowen said all prisoners were subjected to brutal treatment, but as the rebel forces advanced, the situation worsened.
Lying in the ICU unit of Tripoli’s Central Hospital, Benowen winced in pain as he spoke through a respirator. Numerous stab wounds, broken bones and severe bruising covered his body. His neck had been sliced open.
Benowen said the callous attack had occurred four days before the massacre of Aug. 23 when he saw an estimated 130 prisoners shot and blown apart by hand grenades. Many of the bodies were then set on fire.
Benowen is one of only 23 known survivors. Benowen says he survived only because guards had assumed he was dead already. Following the attack he had been left lying in his own blood without assistance for four days.
Looking after Benowen was Asma Omar Elgharian, 25, a volunteer nurse who had been married just 20 days when her new husband was shot dead by Gaddafi's men while protesting peacefully on Feb. 20.
Unbelievable!
Pretty sure it's ETZ, Boston, for GlobalPost.
ReplyDeleteSharp.
ReplyDeleteOn the new guy, Benowen. The injuries are verified and extreme. Wonder how they really happened, and how his story came to be told that way? Odd how no one among guards or crammed prisoners helped him for four days. Why four days? Etc...
No one else mentions this rather horrific alleged incident.
Why does HRW know of "only 23 survivors" and not find that odd? Did they bother trying to compare their stories for consistency? Not so much a "watch" they're pulling as a "blank, self-hypnotized stare." All for Human Rights of course.
Re the Khamis Base at Al Maya / Al Mayah which Alex Crawford was shown outside of clutching sheaves of documents. It is shown better in this ABC Australian video at about 1.20.
ReplyDeleteHowever, this BBC page puts Al Maya 35 km west of Tripoli, whereas the looted Khamis base is given as being 22 km west of Tripoli
Clearly then, Alex Crawford is NOT in Al Maya in front of that rather modern base on 21 August 2011.
More (different) footage of the Khamis Shed massacre in French Libye- des corps carbonisés dans une base militaire de Tripoli - euronews, monde.flv , uploaded on 28 August by hichamnet84 from Euronews. No witnesses interviewed. The guy in striped shirt at 0.18 seems to be laughing in the shed, followed by some really bad drama. There is footage inside the prison transport vehicle, and a dwarf pops up at 0.50. More ham acting at 0.53.
ReplyDeleteThe laugh-crying there is quite pronounced. Seems acommon reaction there. He might be claiming to have been there, or lost someone there. If I knew French I could tell better... Shame on you for suggesting the dwarf was added for entertainment value. He wasn't dancing, being tossed,or anything. :)
ReplyDeleteAnd from that, this in Spanish, TeleSur, even less value:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyNbqh3YH5c
Why no Arabic reports yet?
Oooh...but is this Dr.Rajub again?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPweM7-qcLQ
Yes indeed. AFP Espanol? This other apparent witness seen first might be named among those we know, might not. And then the faker, in terse, practiced English, Aug. 28 (overdubbed,mostly).
Article version seems to have been up on the 27th. Ex:
http://www.rionegro.com.ar/diario/rn/nota.aspx?idart=694648&idcat=9521&tipo=2
More later.
The only real proof – apart from Dr. Rajub's fake witnesses – that the shed compound has ever been used to hold prisoners is BBC's technician Chris Cobb Smith, who identified "the cell alongside the warehouse where the team had been held". As there are no other buildings on the site this must refer to something movable, a car or a shipping container.
ReplyDeleteThe AFP video contains a crucial clue, the blue prison transport vehicle. I understand this is the "cell" Chris Cobb Smith is referring to.
Some downtown areas have satellite images for August 29th, but the shed is only covered on August 20th. If we can identify the prison vehicle from the August 20th images available on Google Maps, then we have a strong indication the compound was a prison; if not, it disproves much of the rebel fable. (Even more important, we must check if the prison truck is there in the first videos.)
Incidentally Dr. Rajub says the shed is "for agriculture." How does he know?
***
I had an other quick look at the AFP video. The video is filmed late in the afternoon. The prison truck seems to be parked right in front of the shed, with the front facing east. There is another rebel pickup, with door half open, right behind it. The prison truck is not seen there in this earlier Sky News video.
***
Dr. Rajub's testimony: "On Tuesday, 23rd of this month at about 7:30 pm we heard..."
I saw the prison transport vehicle on BBC or somewhere in August. It was the one piece of evidence that convinced me that "Khamis" was guilty. The truck was planted there to create exactly this association. On the AFP video you can even see the fresh tire tracks behind it. BBC and AFP must have known that the truck was fake. They showed extremely poor journalistic judgement in broadcasting it.
ReplyDelete***
Note that it is past 6 pm on the AFP video. Dr. Rajub must have been there the whole day. Did he call in sick?
Don't forget the attached little shack, and maybe even the space between that and the shed, where the dead "niggers" were found.
ReplyDeleteI'm like 50/50 on whether Cobb-Smith was held there or not. I don't feel like deciding really, either.
The truck has always bothered me-what a cheap prop. I don't even wanna write about it.
Picking your battles - it makes it workable.
Good catch on Dr. al-Farjani's long day "fact-finding." (didn't verify...)
ReplyDeleteTomas Avenarius reported for the German Sueddeutsche Zeitung Folter hinter Gittern from Tripoli, interviewing one Abu Bakr Tabib in the Khamis shed compound, except that Tabib is describing being imprisoned for 4 days allegedly in the truck which by implication is parked in this yard...30 hours without food or water, had to soil themselves in their trousers...then taken to Abu Salim along with his brother, Faisal.
ReplyDeleteAbu Bakr Tabib only recognised the site by accident "I was watching television yesterday, in a report about the charred bodies in a warehouse, I recognised the buildings again which I could see at the time out of the tiny window of the prison van." He says he knows one of the officers who beat him during interrogation and is now going to report him in Tripoli.
continued from Dr Salim Al-Farjani..
ReplyDeleteThe name style Salaheddine also drew me to This France24 video,accompanying the article Une cinquantaine de corps calcinés découverts près du QG de Khamis Kadhafi by Christopher Moore and Noreddine Bezziou, quoting an escapee Moayed Burani (actually AFP recycled quote). The same actors in the shed also appear in footage from Euronews
The accompanying France24 video allows identification of the guy in the shed in the hooped shirt (crying/laughing/hugging with another man in turquoise shirt which he brings up over his face to mask the smell) as Khaled , i.e. Khaled Khalef Khebir, who explains that his brother was kidnapped by Gaddafi's troops on June 18.
" They were sprayed with petrol and they burnt them" says the man in the red T-shirt for France24. The man in the olive T-shirt says "The pro-Gaddafi threw grenades and then they shot and killed those who were not dead. After he burned them"
France24 is told that the area was captured by rebels on Saturday ( 27th ) after NATO bombing and 7 hours of fighting, echoing AFP sources.
The man in the stripes with gap in teeth appears at 0.38 in the video.Interesting man in white with limp at 0.27.
More on Imam Musa Sadr(allegedly tortured here at the farm long ago...) from the Daily Star (Lebanon), 27 Decembr 2011, Sadr died in Libya jail, kept 12 years in morgue: report
ReplyDelete“Imam Musa Sadr died in his prison cell where he was being held since his disappearance at the hands of [security] members of the Gadhafi regime in 1978,” the source told local Al-Liwaa newspaper in an interview published Tuesday.
The source said Sadr died from natural causes in the summer of 1998. He was being detained in an underground cell at Tripoli’s central prison, the source added.
His body was kept at the prison’s morgue until the early days of the outbreak of the Libyan revolution, according to the source.....may have been taken out of the morgue by Gadhafi’s forces to “cover up the crime.....
According to some evidence and accounts of a number of witnesses, the source said Sadr’s body is likely buried in a mass grave that had been recently discovered in a Tripoli suburb.
Right...
Adam - New Channel 4 witnesses. I had overlooked this Alex Thomson video (a guy I would love to discuss this all with...), uploaded 31 August 2011.
ReplyDeleteAt 3.34, he introduces three men,plus helpers, Ahmed Tayel, (middle aged, chubby, moustache, striped collared t-shirt), Salem Abdul (young,slim, bearded, blue and white striped collarless t-shirt, and another ,"still too frightened to be identified",left-handed,white shirt, greying short back and sides haircut, prominent pimple on left temple.(not the same man seen at 5.01 onwards, check those suspicious, furtive glances at about 5.12...)
"interviewed separately , they corroborate each other
"the three soldiers threw grenades into this shed then sprayed the prisoners with automatic gunfire,then set the place ablaze" says the anonymous witness.
Thomson:"I counted 53 skulls in here,few (sic) had bullet holes consistent with being individually shot in the head,thus corroborating again what the witnesses said.
We can't show any of it but there are bodies all over this area,many with hands and feet tied,prior apparently to execution
Some fabulous footage of the compound "set".
Thanks for that tip.I had included I though two unnamed witnesses corroborating each other (outside witnesses 6/7 here). I hadn't re-watched that report in forever, will iron it out.
ReplyDeleteGood timing too. Much of my quiet time I've been sifting in several new names, splitting off two new categories, adding info, pictures, consolidating a bit... Semi-massive work. I'm at 21-25 escapees we've heard right from, depending on the Arabic-speakers, and four others specified by body or name. That's at least 25.
What a few smart people should do now is sign onto a "Citizens Independent Commission on War Crimes in the Libyan Conflict" and submit hefty and breathtaking reports, detailed yet with powerful summaries, on this, the Abu Salim hospital, etc. Then somehow make the news with it.
just a wild guess:
ReplyDeletewww.globalpost.com/video/5678720/location-sirte-falls-libya-looks-future .
salem hamed forjani- @ 2.14 member rebels Sirte / family of our forjani/rujib?the witness in yarmouk?
[khadafi naked? captured]
@ Hurriya: It's good to keep an eye out for such connections, but this one, if it exists at all, probably means nothing.
ReplyDelete@Hurriya, @Adam: The other witness on the list that shares a name with "Salem Hamed Forjani" is number 4 - Ahmed al-Farjani, 42. Do we know who of the witnesses spoke to the press in English?
ReplyDeleteBig witness discovery, re: Salem al-Farjani.
ReplyDeleteRecent finds suggest the orange-shirted man coached to Sky News' cameras the 27th is M.A. el-Hitri/Atiri, who spoke to the Robert F. Worth of NYT the same day.
Now, did Dr. Salem, his shephers that day, speak to Worth also? Not by that name anyway. But an Ahmed al-Farjani did, age possibly consistent, not a doctor but construction worker, and swore he, in his neighboring town, took in el-Hitri/Atiri to protect him from brainwashed locals following his harrowing escape.
Anyway, whether we have another false name for the Dr. revealing the other half of his name, it might be the "unnamed" witness he shepherded is none other than the pretty important and over-the-top el-Hitri/Atiri, playing shy at first, probably both for Sky and for Worth (they only "first met"on the 27th, with the juicy interview(s) done later)
Hmmm!
@Petri, see above. Great timing. Robert F. Worth, vessel of Atiri's amazing escape story that didn't exist on the 27th. It's all in the post now, awaiting consolidation, but for the record in comments, Worth described a man like Dr. al Farjani put his arm around.
ReplyDeleteI first met Atiri four days later [the 27th]. He was standing in the yard of the prison he had escaped from, a big man in a sweaty orange polo shirt with enormous, haunted eyes.
Other than the big part-it's been decided Farjani is fairly short, and this guy's not much taller. Whaddyou think?
I am highly suspicious of the Worth piece - written nearly 4 weeks after all the other reports, but one quoted by the Secure pdf file.
ReplyDeleteOld Etonian ex-Army officer, Anthony Loyd writes for the UK Times.(was it perhaps behind a pay-wall there? - Certainly the Christian Science monitor alludes to the fact that the visit of Khamis Gaddafi to the shed was reported in the London Times) In fact the influential Times of London is largely missing in the reports on this site perhaps for this reason.
[Don't forget too Atiri allegedly walked with a limp. I don't think this is the slightly deformed man with the limp in the France24 video mentioned above]
Is Abdul Basit yet another alias for Salim? Same age, house overlooks the compound....
PS You have a wrong reference for AP, Dominique Soguel. It is reported here for instance.
PPS. Someone started a Forum Thread at Godlikeproductions on 28 August 2011 immediately after the BBC news. Notice comment at 6.20:
'I'm not convinced that those are the victims of Ghadaffi forces.
They pointed out that there was one man among the dead that was still in government uniform & that he must have refused to fire on people so was himself shot along with the others.
I call bullshit on that & reckon that these were the victims of rebel violence...'
Does anyone else corroborate that? It seems like a genuine comment made at the time...any YouTube BBC news clips saved?? The word uniform doesn't appear, afaics,in your reporting of the dead outside the shed.
The Orla Guerin BBC video (linked above) doesn't mention uniforms - obviously outside the shed as it wouldn't have survived charring - but notice too witnesses (?) at 2.03 (blue striped shirt) and 2.06 (youthful, bearded white collared football shirt) and 'assistant' at 2.15, professional looking close cropped beareded man with gold rimmed spectacles and hooped fawn tee-shirt and checked golfer's trousers and blue tee-shirted, bandana wearing helper.
Forum comment at 6.58:
'That guy in the blue shirt talking about what happened looks like he is straight up lying and making up bullshit.'
Who is that? Salim? Did he talk to the BBC in the earlier report?? The guy in (dark) blue in OG's report didn't talk.
funny line in the Soguel piece: inside the bulletproof jail van..."
Deletea metal bowl, with traces of orange porridge hinted at the harsh conditions imposed on captives.
FWIW, I don't think the Noor/ Yuri Kozyrov photo is of Mohammad Bashir. Shirt too white, thicker hair line (btw fascinating doorway from inside photo next in the Kozyrov stream!)
ReplyDeleteBut Mohammad Bashir and Bashire al-Siddeq seem to share the same shirt and curious ears. Need to have a look at Ormiston's video for hair line... And as you say, unidentified no 3 from VivaAlgerie123 looks like both of the above.
Men in, under, near uniforms/fatigues are widely mentioned, mostly being the two mattress victims with came nearby. That's my guess what the "one man" meant. If it's anything else, I imagine I'd have seen it and maybe remember.
ReplyDeleteAnd that is of course the best clue to what type of people are next door. They share the trait of being dead, apparently on the losing side, so...
#4 actually lookedto me like M Bashir, but has the facial slope I see in Siddeq, the more dingy/off-white shirt, cigarettes (?) in pockets. Bashir's hair... this should be call-able. For once it's all photo, no video. I'll look again.
Blue shirt liar sounds like see-through Salem. Maybe that commentor saw the Sky video instead and commented in confusion. Cool find.
@Felix as above
ReplyDeleteOn Abdul Basit, he and Salim both spoke to Lloyd for the Times/The Australian (confusion there to fix). So I tend to think that shouldn't work.
@ Felix, re: Bashir photos
ReplyDeleteDo note the big difference with both your points-lighting. I'd guess the hair is thinner in the one where light is glaring off his scalp, thicker in shadow? Shirt whiter in sunlight, a bit gray in shadow? I compared the ones posted, and the Kozyrev shot has the same robed guy with him, so I'm pretty sure I called it right-a guy that could be Bashir (again the hairline shape is a good clue minus a face), and statistically, from the small pool hanging around there...
@ Felix: On another look, maybe you're right after all. I'll decide later, maybe. :)
ReplyDeleteFrom the series of photos by Seamus Murphy/VII already discussed here:
ReplyDeleteImage number: 00109408
A survivor locates his brother's corpse amid the burnt bodies of at least 55 men who were executed by militiamen loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi in Tripoli's Salahuddin district. One of the worst single atrocities documented so far during Libya's revolution, the mass execution took place in a barn adjacent to Tripoli's largest military headquarters, where the men were shot and set alight. Tripoli, Libya, Aug. 27, 2011.
Image number: 00109407
A survivor is helped from the scene after seeing his brother's corpse amid the burnt bodies of at least 55 men who were executed by militiamen loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi in Tripoli's Salahuddin district. One of the worst single atrocities documented so far during Libya's revolution, the mass execution took place in a barn adjacent to Tripoli's largest military headquarters, where the men were shot and set alight. Tripoli, Libya, Aug. 27, 2011.
Two more from the same series by Seamus Murphy:
ReplyDeleteImage number: 00109340
Ousama el Gardim shows scars received from being a detainee in Zlitan, Libya on Sept. 2, 2011.
Image number: 00109339
Abul Basit Saad Maoma, 49, shows scars received while being detained in Zlitan, Libya on Sept. 2, 2011. Abul was tortured for several days before being transferred to Tripoli, where he survived the massacre of up to 150 men, allegedly committed by Qaddafi loyalists.
Evidently both photos were taken at the same time. I do not know if Ousama el Gardim is a "survivor."
@Petri: I missed this before. You already caught these two days ago. Good job! As I found, yes, Ousama also claims to have escaped.
DeleteThe "survivor" above: I'm not sure to add him to the main list, or only to the maybes. Can't "survivor" also mean one who survived (lived past) someone? How the hell did he recognize his brother?
13 Unnamed Outside Shed witness (Alex Thomson C4 video) also appears on this Seamus Murphy pic
ReplyDelete@Felix: That is him, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteYou're right on Bashir This photo has the same two guys, with the one's face visible and he's not old at alllike Mr. Bashir. Says vaguely "family and survivors." Wonder how to include or if? Presume the crying one is the survivor, leave as unnamed?
Adam - Ibrahim Zadan #21 seems very similar to bearded man in white shirt in VivaAlgerieNew123 video , but much more so if you use a screen shot at 2.38. Small ears, same hair line.
ReplyDeleteInteresting guy with red shirt and white peaked cap making audio recording at 3.33. Who he?
The final witness, #4 talks about Muhammad Mansour (of the Khamis brigade - see witness Moayed Burani above) at the end of the clip.
We need this translating urgently.
I do find the footage there very compelling and seemingly not at all acted. I wish we had a translation. Again, this seems very genuine testimony - they don't sound rehearsed.
Just noticed on the france24 video, and in the text underneath
ReplyDeleteÀ l'extérieur, sur la paroi du camion, il est écrit : "Dieu, Mouammar, la Libye", le slogan emblématique des Kadhafistes
as sprayed on the blue prison wagon (by whomever)
@Adam.
ReplyDeleteAdrian Jaulmes reported for Le Figaro, published 28 August De Tripoli à Syrte, l'ultime bataille en Libye (different link to above ,which is an AP report for Le Figaro) [photo of shed inside by Louafi Larbi] He quotes Bashir Mohammed Germani
«On avait été enfermés ici par les forces de Kadhafi», dit Bachir Mohammed Germani. Arrêté voici trois mois pour avoir aidé des manifestants à fuir en Tunisie, cet homme a réussi à échapper par miracle au massacre. «Mardi dernier, avant de se replier, les soldats de Kadhafi ont ouvert les portes du hangar. Ils ont tiré dans le tas à la mitrailleuse avant de lancer des grenades à l'intérieur. Je n'ai pas été blessé, j'ai réussi à m'enfuir avec une dizaine d'autres.» Les kadhafistes ont ensuite mis le feu au hangar. Les corps des victimes ne sont plus que des squelettes, ossements blancs sur le sol noir de suie. À l'extérieur, trois autres cadavres, pieds et mains liés, gisent sous des couvertures.
Translation:
ReplyDelete"We had been trapped here by Gaddafi forces," said Mohammed Bashir Germani. Arrested three months ago for helping demonstrators to flee to Tunisia, the man managed to escape the massacre by a miracle. "Last Tuesday, before falling back, the soldiers of Gaddafi opened the hangar doors. They fired into the crowd with machine guns before throwing grenades inside. I was not hurt, I managed to escape with a dozen others. The Gaddafi loyalists then set fire to the shed. The victims' bodies are nothing more than skeletons, white bones on the ground black with soot. Outside, three more bodies, bound hand and foot, lay under blankets.
@ Felix, Petri, Great addition, guys! It's not 100% the same Bashir Mohammed, but I think it's more responsible to include it as probably him than to make a new witness. The burning alive part is not as obvious here. Above, he was still hiding in the shed when they started the fire, and then escaped. Here, he and a dozen others escape first, then the fire.
ReplyDeleteUpdates here were supposed to be "rolling" but stopped for a while. I'll addsome of this soon, more later. Wow, it's getting unwieldy.
sorry felix, thought found addition. To adm : pls can you delete ?
ReplyDeleteCanisters of Petrol. This obscure Canadian source,The Province captures a Sunday Telegraph article of 28 August: Burned bodies found in Tripoli warehouse
ReplyDeleteEight bodies, hands bound, had been left outside the shed. Inside, the remainder had been burned as they lay, the canisters of gasoline still lying in the corners. The Sunday Telegraph was told by locals that up to 150 people were thought to have been killed there.
The horrific find could add to evidence in any future warcrimes prosecution of the Libyan leader.
I didn't see that detail anywhere else. Perhaps I missed it??
@ Felix: I'm no gas canister expert, but there's at least the one big tankin the southeast corner. It could be filled with petrol, but would be very heavy when full. I'd presume that's just the reporter's guess, or maybe a rebel said so.
ReplyDelete@felix :
ReplyDeleteThe skeletons were still smouldering. Empty petrol canisters lay among the bodies, and the steel doors were full of bullet-holes.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8728056/Libya-charred-bodies-discovered-in-farm-building-near-Tripoli.html
Oh, thanks, that's the Spencer article. I just didn't find the words petrol canisters on this blog connected with the shed. Perhaps coming soon?
ReplyDelete@Adam the first "exclusive" Sky video was broadcast at 1600hrs, the second one at 1800 hrs. I have just noticed that a screen capture of a large part of the Sky news at 1800 on 27 August has been uploaded here by freelibyano1, including a long stumbling recital of the "story" as told by Salim and other witnesses. See from 4.10 to 7.00.
ReplyDeleteStumbled across a few photos lately:
ReplyDeleteBashir al-Siddeq and Ibrahim Zadan, I think, embracing outside the doors
the "two guys" in red and white
Siddeq? and guy in white? embracing intensely
red and white and Siddeq
I only just noticed that Bashir Al-Siddeq wear that same identical collared shirt with lapels as witness #4 , so they must be one and the same.
DeleteFirst picture - man embracing has Ibrahim Zadan's ears, as well as looking like him.
DeleteSecond picture, R.Haviv - you have this linked as "another photograph" (two guys...) in the main article above.
Third picture - yes, that off-white shirt looks from the back like it might have lapels i.e. Siddeq's.
The "red and white" guys appear in the Kosyrev - Noor picture also in "two guys..."
Fourth picture - yes.
@Felix: Thanks for the longer spiel from Ramsay. Doesn't add a whole lot, but some.
ReplyDeleteI'm seeing at least one more big canister in the NW corner, between victims #2 and 3. M. Bashir says he hid behind one of these.
@caustic : the white embracing seeing from behind has a thick back and some hair went in midst of his head : mid 40/last photo red, sadiq and white : zidan also has a white blouse alike ,but it is not him I think, this one has more curley hair
ReplyDeleteCan you guys pay attention to this one :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwkCk5wrNCY
Published on Aug 28, 2011 by afpfr
describer events ? @ 0.10: ppl laying 1 above another / they start grenades/0.29: on Tuesday 7.30 pm
which witness is this. Did I miss something?
@hurriya - Yes, he is obviously some kind of witness - he says 130 people.
DeleteI think this man in black must be Moayed Burani, because what he says is very similar to the text (but not identical) reported in Le Nouvel Observateur, 28 August 2011,LIBYE. Un charnier découvert à Tripoli (AFP):
Selon Moayed Burani, un ancien prisonnier qui a échappé au massacre du fait de son transfert dans un autre hangar, il y a eu jusqu'à 120 ou 130 détenus dans cette pièce de 20 mètres carrés. "Les gens étaient entassés les uns sur les autres", témoigne l'ex-prisonnier. D'après lui, les soldats de Kadhafi ont fermé la porte et lancé des grenades dans la cellule
@Adam - worth adding the photo?
@ felix : I come so angry : every time reporting : the people were so scared under the regime of the colonel : not true!
ReplyDeleteThey seem to have the story now well lined : tuesday , 7. 30 in night .
But :
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/08/29/libya-evidence-suggests-khamis-brigade-killed-45-detainees
The survivor, Abdulrahim Ibrahim Bashir, 25, said that at sunset on August 23 [tuesday] guards of the Khamis Brigade opened fire on him and the other detainees from the roof,
Last Wednesday, sometime after the early evening prayer, I heard the sound of heavy gunfire and grenades, then complete calm. Then in the evening, my neighbors came to me.
A witness [abdallah]who escaped the scene, said not less than 140 people were rounded up by the soldiers from Brigade 32, led by Muammar Gaddafi's son Khamis, on Tuesday 23 August , the day rebels pushed forward and entered Tripoli.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8728056/Libya-charred-bodies-discovered-in-farm-building-near-Tripoli.html
they were 2 3 months there, wern't they?
@sunset doors open / grenade /jumped over wall
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrp0m_captives-executed-in-libya_news
some of my comments are deleted again, tomorrow I'll repost them
ReplyDelete@hurriya. re Daily Motion CNN video of Arwa Damon ,at 0.21, notice group of people around the white car outside the gate. Notice tall man in white - is he the companion of Al-Atri? Also, no reason for people to be covering their faces in the road, no smells there, unless of course they have something to hide (like plenty of other people in the compound and also Abu Salim hospital) and don't want to be recognised. It's surely not because they are Gaddifi supporters and I am sure everybody in that compound is there voluntarily.
ReplyDelete@ FELIX : the grey one behind Atiri/ the acompagnon Atriri with long white khamees and Basheer Own :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrp0m_captives-executed-in-libya_news
YOU MEAN THE 1 WITH THE LONG KHAMEES?
Y, THIS COULD BE THE COMPAGNON OF ATRI , COMPARING CLOTHES AND POSTURE
WITNESS MOUNIR OWN/BASHIR OWN HELDING PAPERS OF PEOPLE ALL OVER LIBIYA
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/09/06/the_dark_corners_of_qaddafis_police_state?page=full#10
http://www.eldiario24.com/uploads/editorial/2011/08/27/imagenes/56252_cadaveres_tripoli.jpg
check grey ONE behind atriti /felix/0.33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ45gA_d-FI
@ felix :
ReplyDeleteso the grey one might be : Moayed Burani
but who is then the young one @ 0.13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwkCk5wrNCY
may be I post double but cant find this post back in the comments :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrp0m_captives-executed-in-libya_news
YOU MEAN THE 1 WITH THE LONG KHAMEES?
Y, THIS COULD BE THE COMPAGNON OF ATRI , COMPARING CLOTHES AND POSTURE
WITNESS MOUNIR OWN/BASHIR OWN HELDING PAPERS OF PEOPLE ALL OVER LIBIYA
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/09/06/the_dark_corners_of_qaddafis_police_state?page=full#10
http://www.eldiario24.com/uploads/editorial/2011/08/27/imagenes/56252_cadaveres_tripoli.jpg
check grey ONE behind atriti /felix/0.33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ45gA_d-FI
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/monde/20110828.OBS9309/libye-un-charnier-decouvert-a-tripoli.html
ABOUT MOAYED BURANI :
ReplyDeleteI HAD IT WRONG :
The survivor, Abdulrahim Ibrahim Bashir, 25, said that at sunset on August 23 guards of the Khamis Brigade opened fire on him and the other detainees from the roof, shooting through the roof’s tin sheeting, while another guard threw grenades in from the entrance. He survived by escaping over a wall while the guards were reloading their weapons.
Abdulrahim and the man detained earlier at the warehouse, Moiayad Abu Ghraim, 28
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/08/29/libya-evidence-suggests-khamis-brigade-killed-45-detainees
@ caustic 4 photo's :
ReplyDeletezidan, sadiq white blouse
I recognise the 3th guy in white [ photo 3] : there must be one photo which I cant find now : the guy in white is taken out the shed by the red guy and smb with a mask. Does smb has the link?
@caustic about 4 photo's : not yet found 3rth white just out the shed accompagned by red and 1 with mask, but thx to felix found a more clear one of the 3rth in white :
ReplyDeletehttp://lightbox.time.com/2011/08/30/the-battle-for-tripoli-photographs-by-yuri-kozyrev/#19
@ caustic : did y notice that MOAYED BURANI could be Moiayad Abu Ghraim, 28?
ReplyDelete@caustic, really sad of all the immens work.Back ups?
ReplyDeleteThis one beneath is not yet listed ?
http://viiphoto.wg.picturemaxx.com/id/preview.php?UURL=190c217b10e0a48df2477882017f33c6&SECTION=SERIESRESULT&IMGID=00109339
Description:
Abul Basit Saad Maoma, 49, shows scars received while being detained in Zlitan, Libya on Sept. 2, 2011. Abul was tortured for several days before being transferred to Tripoli, where he survived the massacre of up to 150 men, allegedly committed by Qaddafi loyalists.
http://viiphoto.wg.picturemaxx.com/id/preview.php?UURL=e12c1618a7a6498bb6ce241fc22c2949&SECTION=SERIESRESULT&IMGID=00109407
A survivor is helped from the scene after seeing his brother's corpse amid the burnt bodies of at least 55 men who were executed by militiamen loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi in Tripoli's Salahuddin district
I noticed later Petri already mentioned this and the other I found by it, and the brother. But just now discovering them helped my mood improve. Not that it was too bad really!
DeleteOn the Moayed, yes, they've been listed as one person from the beginning. The Kozy photo I've already seen, if not listed. Will make sure to. I think white shirt is a survivor. What do you think? Did he say fire was set minutes later, I wonder?
@ Hurriya: you brightened my day with that liar's idiot back. Thanks! That's indeed a rare new find I didn't think I'd get, making again 21!
ReplyDeleteThe list will come back, better than before, but it'll be a while before it's done.
22 again. Another one right before it:
ReplyDeleteOusama el Gardim was tortured for several days before being transferred to Tripoli, where he survived the massacre of up to 150 men, allegedly committed by loyalist forces. Zlitan, Libya on Sept. 2, 2011.
@caustic : this one you have inside the list, I suppose?
ReplyDeleteKhaled Khalef Khebir says his brother Abdulkhalim is one of the dead.
One survivor, Moftar Abdallah
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,783020,00.html
@ caustic : are there now 4 white bloused guys : zidan, sadiq,gardim,[boldheaded] and 1 with curly hair ?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.viiarchive.com/webgate/preview.php?UURL=961e2fe7dcd7cd89ed79c04dac93078c&SECTION=SERIESRESULT&IMGID=00109407
A survivor is helped from the scene after seeing his brother's corpse amid the burnt bodies of at least 55 men who were executed by militiamen loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi in Tripoli's Salahuddin district.
Ousama el Gardim
http://lightbox.time.com/2011/08/30/the-battle-for-tripoli-photographs-by-yuri-kozyrev/#19
@Hurriya: I don't know. About that. But Zidan's is light blue maybe (blue filter on photos), and Siddeq I'd say is "off-white." And yes. K.K. Kheiber is now a maybe survivor (as opposed to de-listed) with his own post. :)
DeleteBenowen to the rescue. He's some guy - bionic man: throat slit, lying in own blood for 4 days, now in hospital,living to tell the convenient tale. He needs to be the subject of intense medical research....one for our conoisseur of fine cuisine, Dr Hani Mowafi from PHR to mull over, perhaps write a monograph or two on for the medical journals.
ReplyDelete@adam NEW CBC Susan Ormiston video with extensive footage of Bashir Al-Siddeq is seen below the familiar one on this page,and some new yard angles and shots. Have a look! Also perhaps the man with specs. It is filmed Sunday am.
ReplyDeleteStill outside shed pic with Bashir emerging into the light here by Derek Stoffel.
DeleteDouble sweet. Actually, the video doesn't seem any different than I remember. It's the first, short one I don't think I've seen. Jeez lady, they're just flies. I don't think they'll give you the plagues. Nothing but her, boring.
DeleteFunny that - the first one was the only one I recall listed on your lost page, and the only one I saw. The screen grab you had of Bashir seemed to have come from the "flies" video too.
DeleteA witness [abdallah]who escaped the scene, said not less than 140 people were rounded up by the soldiers from Brigade 32, led by Muammar Gaddafi's son Khamis, on Tuesday 23 August , the day rebels pushed forward and entered Tripoli.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8728056/Libya-charred-bodies-discovered-in-farm-building-near-Tripoli.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/08/28/libya-massacre.html
held here 95 days Ormiston says/ on monday night soldiers start shooting/throwing 2 grenades/19 escapees true the openings.Sadiq also talks about monday night
"It is the most grisly sight," the CBC's Susan Ormiston reported on Sunday from Tripoli after she and CBC reporter Derek Stoffel visited the building south of the capital./Posted: Aug 28, 2011
Diana Eltahawy Amnesty has a sharp eye, can see form the screen whodunnit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkRNLzts3lo&feature=related
sadiq crying about black bodies 1.07
@ felix : the spectacle man @3.02 is not a fluent english speaker?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/08/28/libya-massacre.html
@caustic :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkRNLzts3lo&feature=related
talking about mohamed mansour 6.05
@ caustic : just some questions :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwkCk5wrNCY
SURVIVOR 0.10/[ferjani as local]
not same guy?
http://i40.tinypic.com/2lb19nl.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkRNLzts3lo&feature=related
WHERE DID ALL THE CAPTURED GO :
subsahara people kept inside yarmouk base : 6.12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIJ4vU6mf0Y
http://photos.denverpost.com/mediacenter/2011/08/photos-libyan-rebels-enter-tripoli/#9
A Libyan rebel fighter holds a captured pro-Gadhafi fighter, center, inside a military base in Tripoli, Libya, Monday, Aug. 22, 2011.
Cette base, la dernière encore aux mains des forces loyalistes dans la capitale, a été prise samedi après un bombardement de l'Otan et sept heures de combats, précisent les rebelles.
ReplyDeleteThis base , the last still in hands of loyalists in the city, has been taken on saturday after a bombardment of Nato and 7 hours fighting , the rebels said
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/monde/20110828.OBS9309/libye-un-charnier-decouvert-a-tripoli.html
Moayed Burani?
http://referentiel.nouvelobs.com/file/2341904.JPG
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/monde/20110828.OBS9309/libye-un-charnier-decouvert-a-tripoli.html
talking about digged up bodies :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrp0m_captives-executed-in-libya_news
digged up bodies 2.55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkRNLzts3lo&feature=related
ReplyDeletesadiq crying about black bodies 1.07
Death's ceremony lies on the floor, as the hundreds make way for the thousands of bodies to be disposed of.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqPYhPkfHdw&feature=relmfu
BURIED WITHOUT INVESTIGATIONS WITH APPROVAL OF ICRS MAN ROBIN WAUDO
@felix :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10183958-over-50-rebel-libyans-massacred-in-shed
does this man look familiair to you felix? special last photo!
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10183958/content/86338039-a-libyan-rebel-fighter-takes-a-photo-of-muammar-gaddafi-s-private-plane-with-his-mobile
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10183958/content/86338040-a-libyan-rebel-fighter-takes-souvenir-photographs-of-fellow-fighters-standing-beside
@ caustic :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/magazine/the-surreal-ruins-of-qaddafis-never-never-land.html?pagewanted=all
Atiri and another prisoner named Taha
Ibrahim Omar Zadan
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2011/08/29/hell-on-earth-in-chamber-of-horrors-where-regime-thugs-burned-their-captives-alive-86908-23380215/
http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/aug2011/1/1/image-9-for-editorial-pics-29-08-2011-gallery-705925363.jpg
http://books.google.nl/books?id=M374UgkATXkC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=Ibrahim+Zadan&source=bl&ots=g0FAzGrAoB&sig=RlMKGcGnJwQYG4_70fcRu-A7eLQ&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=ilITT_H8AcGfOvL1nYsD&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Ibrahim%20Zadan&f=false
ReplyDeleteIbrahim Zadan?
Ahmed Zaydan.
http://alive.in/libya/tag/sidi-mohammed-ag-ahmed-zaidan/
“We have been living on the edge of a volcano,” I was told by one of the family’s sons, a 32-year-old named Ahmed Zaydan.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/magazine/the-surreal-ruins-of-qaddafis-never-never-land.html?pagewanted=all
From the Alive in Libya site comes this "survivor" tale: Jamal Mohammed Diyali
DeleteYoung Boy Recounts His Time In Prison
Posted on September 16, 2011
http://youtu.be/QXQ0hloTeNM
@ Hurriya, possible Zadan/Zaydan connection. Worth considering.
Delete@ Petri: Interesting video in numerous ways. If I skimmed right, he (said he) was held at Qusr bin Ghashir, righ? He mentions at the end bodies being removed from that area for burial in Zintan.I didn't catch anything about the Yarmouk base.
@Adam I don't remember reading of David Bruser of the Toronto Star: Horror in Tripoli as Star reporter discovers charred human remains who was "....riding out of the city with the Misurata rebel faction..." visiting the Khamis shed on 27 August. (photo too I haven't seen before). He quotes a rebel called Rabia Faraj Kashou Bruser also photographed the shed floor bones
ReplyDeleteNot bad. No new escapees, but a good photo, some peripheral stuff. Thanks.
Deletehttp://libyasos.blogspot.com/2012/01/how-amnesty-international-spread-rumors.html?spref=tw
ReplyDeleteHow Amnesty International spread rumors and fuelled media disinformation during NATO attacks on Libya in 2011
This base , the last still in hands of loyalists in the city, has been taken on saturday after a bombardment of Nato and 7 hours fighting , the rebels said
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/monde/20110828.OBS9309/libye-un-charnier-decouvert-a-tripoli.html
Ali Zaidan, a former Libyan diplomat who now helps represent the opposition ..
ReplyDelete.
said Ahmed Zeidan, a longtime Libyan dissident.
@felix : will you put your eye on the photo's ?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10183958-over-50-rebel-libyans-massacred-in-shed
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10183958/content/86338039-a-libyan-rebel-fighter-takes-a-photo-of-muammar-gaddafi-s-private-plane-with-his-mobile
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10183958/content/86338040-a-libyan-rebel-fighter-takes-souvenir-photographs-of-fellow-fighters-standing-beside
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10183958-over-50-rebel-libyans-massacred-in-shed
ReplyDelete@caustic : was this not 1 of the witnesses?
I don't know. That article. seems new to me. Did I miss the name, details, quote, or anything for this one miraculous survivor? Is there a missing rest of the article? Or was it just not included in this "informative, well written report?" If so, it's the stupidest thing I've seen.
DeleteIt's worth noting at least. Thanks!
@ caustic : noticed by felix :the grey man covering face while no need for it : could be witness :
ReplyDeleteMoayed Burani?
http://referentiel.nouvelobs.com/file/2341904.JPG
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/monde/20110828.OBS9309/libye-un-charnier-decouvert-a-tripoli.html
then the other witness is :moayed abu graim , look @6.05
Moiayad Abu Ghraim, 28
Abdulrahim and the man detained earlier at the warehouse, Moiayad Abu Ghraim, 28, who was interviewed separately by Human Rights Watch, said that the commander overseeing the warehouse was Muhammad Mansour of the Khamis Brigade. Neither of them had ever seen him.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/08/29/libya-evidence-suggests-khamis-brigade-killed-45-detainees
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkRNLzts3lo&feature=related
talking about mohamed mansour 6.05
@Caustic :
ReplyDelete"Hurriya, possible Zadan/Zaydan connection. Worth considering"
caustic : I meant this point :
“We have been living on the edge of a volcano,” I was told by one of the family’s sons, a 32-year-old NAMED AHMED ZAYDAN
AHMED ZAYDAN
http://alive.in/libya/tag/sidi-mohammed-ag-ahmed-zaidan/
Not far away, I found a family still living in their house, one of the few that had not abandoned the area. They invited me in for tea. Their house was large and clean and cool, an unexpected refuge in that desert full of dead bodies and burned buildings. They had stayed there, often in a state of terror, through the entire period from February until August, as the war was raging. They told me Khamis Qaddafi’s soldiers had taken over the entire area in the preceding months. Huge trucks had arrived at all hours of the day and night, stockpiling weapons in preparation for the city’s defense against the rebels. Many of the weapons were still there, some of them packed in crates, some of them spilling across the warehouse floors, totally unguarded
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/magazine/the-surreal-ruins-of-qaddafis-never-never-land.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
ABOUT RAFAII, WHO SEEMS TO BE AN ALL KNOWING WITNESS :
ReplyDeleteOn the other side of the yard is an area with warehouses. Rafaii says that the regime supposedly used them to house mercenaries from sub-Saharan Africa. There are three prisoner-transport vans in the compound, of a kind used by the police rather than the military. One of them is a pick-up truck made by the company O'Gara Hess & Eisenhardt with extremely narrow single cells made of sheet metal. Not far away there are two bulldozers parked in front of empty pits that have obviously been freshly dug.
Rafaii relates how the people here were killed. He says the killings took place at about 8 p.m. last Tuesday, around the time that Muslims break their fast during Ramadan. That afternoon, rebels had captured Gadhafi's enormous Bab al-Aziziya compound in Tripoli, the symbol of the regime's power. It must have already been clear to Gadhafi's supporters that the war was lost. Perhaps they thought it was time to cover their tracks.
According to Rafaii, Gadhafi's soldiers drove people into the large warehouse. They then threw hand grenades into the back of the building. The surviving prisoners ran toward the open door of the warehouse, where Gadhafi's men shot most of them, he says. Many of the charred skeletons lie next to and in front of the door.
Some prisoners managed to escape, Rafaii says. One got over the wall and into the neighboring property, where he was shot. Two men even managed to make it to his house, where they hid. Rafaii's version of events explains why there are two unburned bodies outside the warehouse. The corpse with the bound limbs remains a mystery, however. The man could hardly have escaped from the warehouse while tied up.
Another neighbor, an elderly man named Ali Boukhatwa, said he had not heard about any other murders, but added that he lives 700 meters away.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,783020,00.html
@petri : could you find out with google maps which houses are meant :
ReplyDeleteA few days later, I went back to the Yarmouk prison. Volunteers were digging in the sand; more bodies had been found buried in the yard. Down the road, the headquarters of the Khamis Brigade was empty and covered with graffiti, and someone had stolen the numbers from its front gate.
Not far away, I found a family still living in their house, one of the few that had not abandoned the area. They invited me in for tea. Their house was large and clean and cool, an unexpected refuge in that desert full of dead bodies and burned buildings. They had stayed there, often in a state of terror, through the entire period from February until August, as the war was raging. They told me Khamis Qaddafi’s soldiers had taken over the entire area in the preceding months. Huge trucks had arrived at all hours of the day and night, stockpiling weapons in preparation for the city’s defense against the rebels. Many of the weapons were still there, some of them packed in crates, some of them spilling across the warehouse floors, totally unguarded
Ahmed Zaydan took me to the roof of a nearby house, where we could see a field full of munitions left by the Khamis Brigade. There was a stack of boxed land mines about 30 yards long and 15 feet high. Beyond them, in a copse of withered fruit trees, were crates of TNT in wooden boxes. “This is how Qaddafi spent our oil money,” Zaydan said. “Enough weapons to wage 10 more wars.” We walked to the other side of the roof, and Zaydan pointed to the Yarmouk prison, only a few hundred yards away.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/magazine/the-surreal-ruins-of-qaddafis-never-never-land.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
@ Hurriya, let me start over. You asked Petri, but I wouldn't even try-he probably wouldn't either - from a text description, unless maybe it was really precise on directions and gave a feature that could be seen from above (like a Minaret). Only if I had a good photo or some video would I have enough to bother mapping out surrounding houses/buildings. I'm still not even sure which house yard victim #9 had his face smashed in.
Delete@Adam In this article in "Libération",En Libye, dans l’effroi d’un charnier by Jean-Louis Le Touzet , 29 August, there is a lot of detail. In translation, Dr Rajub is said to keep a medical practice nearby, and there is another escapee, Tarar Gazi from Zliten. Helpers come from a nearby Cement factory. Have a look.
ReplyDelete@Adam. Another French article: La Croix correspondent Camille Le Tallec reported another survivor tale in the article of 30 August - En Libye, les deux camps ont commis des exactions. It reports the story of Moktar Mahmoud Zedan, 23 who was imprisoned for 67 days then escaped thanks to the mercy of a guard. Another Omar Hadad is sure that his brother was among the prisoners, but it is not clear why, or where he pops up from.
ReplyDeleteFascinating piece. Moustapha (el-Hitri) is in there too, alongside Dr. Salim, I believe.
DeleteTarrar fled "comme" (like/as/along with?) Mustafa, who said he fled with a "Taha", both taken in by Mr. al Farjani, both speaking alongside Dr.Salim here?
@Adam: Bashir Al Siddeq is reported in the French Press. Le Matin calls him Bachir Mohammed Sedik. "Bachir Mohammed Sedik faisait partie de ceux qui ont été entassés dans la chaleur et la pestilence de ce hangar. Il y a passé quatre-vingt-quinze jours et, tout à coup, la porte s'est ouverte, vendredi 26 août, puis des grenades ont été lancées sur les 150 prisonniers, tandis qu'à l'extérieur des exécuteurs attendaient les fuyards et tentaient de les tuer tous avec des armes automatiques." Le Monde calls him Bachir Mohammed Sadik Otherwise the story is identical. It is translated for Allvoices.
ReplyDeleteElsewhere he is
@ Felix: Wow, slight headache but euphoria too. Sounds like two new escapees? 26 now? Wow, great finds. And other details too, needing double-check, translation, links... No promise when but of course this all goes in.
DeleteI've tracked down the Germani version of Bachir Mohammed, though it was already handed to me once or twice, to Le Figaro. Considering the French-language connection (and or/Canadian), and three months detention, this is Siddeq/Sedik after all. How "Germani" got swapped in there I don't know.
Delete25.
@caustic : from a text description,
ReplyDeleteIve tried to find the mapping Petri did before of the shed and buildings in area where Ferjani could have his residence. Not able to find these comments : did I dream it?
But the text description gives some clues :
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/magazine/the-surreal-ruins-of-qaddafis-never-never-land.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
-that desert full of dead bodies and burned buildings.
-Beyond them, in a copse of withered fruit trees, were crates of TNT in wooden boxes
-We walked to the other side of the roof, and Zaydan pointed to the Yarmouk prison, only a few hundred yards away.
Another neighbor, an elderly man named Ali Boukhatwa, said he had not heard about any other murders, but added that he lives 700 meters away.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,783020,00.html
I do not know of any Salem al Farjani residence neat the Khamis Brigade base. Ther was one building marked on Wikimapia in downtown Tripoli, but it is more likely the football player.
DeleteYou wanted to know the location of the house where the New York Times visited. Do you think this is somehow related to Dr. al Farjani?
It should be possible to see the 30 yards long stack of boxed land mines in the August 20th satellite image on Google Maps or on Google Earth. I did have a look but did not find anything suspicious. There are a number of fields with fruit trees, none of them look "withered", at least not in August.
@H True, it does specify a field, on "the other side" of the roof (90 deg or 180 deg separation?) from the base, but still maybe too vague. It's a work to certainty ratio (high) plus relative lack of importance. I don't thin the Zaydan house is important, and I don't see how al-Farjani's house plays in here. That might be worth looking at/for, but even if it was his, I wouldn't bother without something better.
DeleteHowever, I'm open to anyone else's strokes of genius on this issue.
oftopic to another area of destruction : does somebody know which hospital in Tripoli was taken on 18 aug?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=CaEZNr554P8
which hospital in Tripoli is this?
Uploaded by MrFreedomlibya on Aug 18, 2011
http://media.washtimes.com/media/image/2011/08/26/libya_0190_s620x413.jpg?bb008c2956167eaed174995673e3460e6bcf341d
http://viiphoto.wg.picturemaxx.com/id/preview.php?UURL=f9de82f7584dc8d46c704b5e0078c857&SECTION=SERIESRESULT&IMGID=00109139
Description:
Libyan rebels are seen in the streets in Tripoli, Libya, Aug. 25, 2011.
@hurriya
DeleteIt doesn't look like Mitiga though. But Mitiga was already well under rebel control on 21 Ramadan (=21 august) as seen in this video,تحرير السجناء فى مستشفى امعيتيقة 21 اغسطس . I am much more suspicious of this video which allegedly shows liberation of Mitiga air base on the same day, yet shows very little, plus a large fire and smoke.
@Adam: Anne Barker Middle East Correspondent of the Australian ABC interviews Salem Rajab (sic) for the AM programme there on 30 August. There is a transcript accompanying the short audio. THere are apparently 32 bodies outside the shed - 20 outside and 12 across the road. Salem apparently lives next door... (quoted facts, not direct from Salem.
ReplyDelete@felix, ye in your vid y can clear see how the place is bombed.
ReplyDeleteTHE AIRPORT SEEMS TO HAVE GIVEN SOME PROBLEMS MANY DAYS , BUT AFTER SEVERE BOMBING THEY SEEM TO HAVE SUCCEEDE ON 24?
http://www.wat.tv/video/libya-nato-bombing-civilian-3wtej_31wod_.html
nato bombing airport 19 aug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj1v7TStF20&feature=player_embedded# !
EXCREVATOR / APACHES/ MITIGA [AIRPORT/HOSPITAL/ SOUQ AL JOUMA/
15 - Snipers on rooftop of tallest building at junction of Jraba Street and Ras Ahsan. Coordinates to the Location of Snipers in Benashour 32°52'12.28"N 13°12'22.36" E
IN ONE NIGHT THERE WERE 1300 PPL KILLED, 5000 INJURED
http://www.voltairenet.org/Thierry-Meyssan-So-called-U-S
In other districts acc to early tweets troups from outside went more quickly inside many districts:
ReplyDeletehttp://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/visionaryck/Tripolidistricts.jpg
MAP DISTRICTS
20 AUG Niz - Horrid smell of smoke and burning hangs over Soug al Jomaa, Aarada and EinZara. Could be from bombing along the coastal road. #MermaidDawn
http://www.libyauprisingarchive.com/tripoli-niz-free-generation-movement.html
20 AUG-Zawiyat Dahmani ,Fashloum, Ben Shour,Mansoura,Araada/al-Sabaa
20 AUG The Mitiga military base on the outskirts of Tripoli was taken by the
anti-Muammar Gaddafi forces on 20 August,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgyWmx5si6Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-49rhia97QE&list=UUzhK_gtHBdosLZ_R8Pa2zfw&index=258&feature=plcp
the fall of tripoli/ 21 aug green square taken/tuesday morning bab alzaziya 22 aug/inside tent 2.41/mercenary 10.10/Jaber 8.35
21 AUG-main Kames base in Maia
http://www.r-shief.org/twitter/feb17voices-lpc-tripoli-furnaj-area-gunfire-still-audible-libya-179098/
21 AUG LPC #Tripoli: in Furnaj area gunfire is still audible #Libya
22 AUG-Bab Al Aziziya
In the area of Abu Saleem civilians start to die at 20 aug.
ReplyDelete20 AUG - KILLING ON 11 UNIO 'JUNE 'STREET
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v-aAx9lzbGo/TkcKPytNFfI/AAAAAAAAATg/k8FGwSoMwY0/s1600/Tripoli+Prisons.jpg
MAP DISTRICT ABU SALEEM PRISON
http://i44.tinypic.com/29z91mq.jpg
19 AUG FREED LARGE NUMBER PRISONERS ABU SALEEM PRISON
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv3u57tccrI&list=UUzhK_gtHBdosLZ_R8Pa2zfw&index=171&feature=plcp
MASS GRAVE AT 11 UNIO 'JUNE'STREET 20 AUG
http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=32.85135899,13.23471397
In Al Furjan seems to have happened early fighting :
ReplyDelete20 AUG - FIGHTING IN AREA AL FURJAN
http://www.channel4.com/news/rebels-launch-operation-mermaid-to-take-tripoli
map of invasion sides
http://i42.tinypic.com/14e9py0.jpg
20 AUG KHADAFI FORCES FUELING AT KHALITT AL FURJAN VEHICLE STORAGE
http://www.almaredcargo.com/libya-en.htm
Tripoli: Al Furjan interview Dispenser petrol station - Dakhla Mosque Al Furjan - a distance of 2 km /Airports close to Khallat al Farjān Tripoli international(TIP), Tripoli, Libya (10.5km)
http://i42.tinypic.com/o0b5v7.jpg
WADI AL FURJAN
@ Petri : when there is a local, mr Rajub, who happens to live near the shed and by coïncidence appears to be the driving force behind the finding of victims of just the rebel side and there is a Zaydan, who lives nearby from february till aug ,and who is clearly an enemy of the colonel :
ReplyDeleteI want Qaddafi to die,” Zaydan said. “And not just to die once, but to die every minute, every hour
then it can't be unlogic to suppose a connection.
How did the Zaydan survive? by playing loyalist?
Atiri told me that after running from the warehouse, they leapt over a low wall at the far end of the prison, then sprinted between empty houses and farms.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/magazine/the-surreal-ruins-of-qaddafis-never-never-land.html?pagewanted=9&r=1&_r=1
Some prisoners managed to escape, Rafaii says. One got over the wall and into the neighboring property, where he was shot. Two men even managed to make it to his house, where they hid.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,783020,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/magazine/the-surreal-ruins-of-qaddafis-never-never-land.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
The family gave them new clothes and some money, and the eldest son drove the two escapees to a neighboring town and dropped them off. He [ ahmed ferjani] then led Atiri and Taha to his own house and locked the door
I met Farjani — who was still protecting Atiri in his house — in Tripoli, and listened to both men narrate the events of that day
Ragai’s own concern, he told me, was to free the 150 prisoners at Yarmouk.
Some prisoners managed to escape, Rafaii says.
@petri :
ReplyDelete@Petri :I do not know of any Salem al Farjani residence neat the Khamis Brigade base.
ANNE BARKER: Salem Rajab (phonetic) lives in the house next door. Most were civilians, he said, who'd been arrested weeks, even months ago for taking part in a protest against the Gaddafi regime.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3305214.htm
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,783020,00.html
ReplyDeletethe barracks of the 32nd Brigade, Moammar Gadhafi's elite force led by his son Khamis, is located about 800 meters from the Khellet Ferjan compound.
On the other side of the yard is an area with warehouses.
Zaydan took me to the roof of a nearby house, where we could see a field full of munitions left by the Khamis Brigade. There was a stack of boxed land mines about 30 yards long and 15 feet high
-"that desert full of dead bodies and burned buildings."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHgXntol98E
wadi al furjan @1.14
- In a house under construction or renovation on some metres distant there lies a body in the middle of a empty room
http://www.la-croix.com/Actualite/S-informer/Monde/En-Libye-les-deux-camps-ont-commis-des-exactions-_EP_-2011-08-30-705009
ANNE BARKER: In the days since, another 20 bodies have been found outside the warehouse and another 12 across the road.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3305214.htm
I met Ragai in a reclaimed Intelligence Ministry barracks in Tajoura, an eastern suburb of Tripoli. He had a militia of about 70 men, many of them veterans of bloody street battles in Misrata and other towns, and he was still running operations against Qaddafi hideouts.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/magazine/the-surreal-ruins-of-qaddafis-never-never-land.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
I admit I'm not a big expert on the details of the different fronts. Could be none of us is. We might not have been told just who was really where and when. Point that stands: Misrata fighters of some type took Yarmouk. It's only when. Mid-day Aug 26, or some hours before that Misrata military council e-mail at dawn on thje 24th? Both contained sudden discoveries of Gaddafi victims, 140 or 150, killed with grenades in some prison. Only one such story emerged in the end.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=7922275
@Adam, @Hurriya. I thought I had seen the man with wispy beard before who was at the Khamis shed - here he is in a "weapons find" ,perhaps near to the shed, at 0.18 in this Euronenews video, Tripoli: scoperti arsenali nei quartieri civili . He is wearing the striped shirt, indicating it is perhaps filmed the same day he appeared in the shed compound. And he speaks good English! The reporter is Jamel Ezzedini "This is a civilian house" says this man with gap in his lower teeth. He seems quite angry for the cameras. Clearly not, then, inside the Khamis base....
ReplyDeleteThat guy's an asshole. Ranting about un-used weaponry they're looting to ... ??? "You see this? The world would be a better place if anyone in Libya had managed to use this thing right, and shot it into my stupid head long ago! Why is it just sitting in storage?"
DeleteSorry.
Hungarian MTV sent its journalist Dr Al Ghaoui Hesna who specialises in "conflict areas" to Tripoli. She was also given a ride around by the Misrata brigade, visiting the arms cache in the "residential house" (but clearly not a house from the footage) and also, from 1.01. a trip round the Khamis warehouse yard. Video here: Al Ghaoui Hesna - Tripoli - 2011.08.28. No internal footage, but she seems to interview a new, unnamed witness, at the rear of the white refrigerated truck. The new footage is from 1.30, following some earlier filming I have seen elsewhere pinched from another source, earlier in the day. Anyone know Hungarian?
ReplyDeletesorry, Hungarian footage here.
ReplyDeleteI checked it out. Didn't see anything to suggest he's a survivor/escapee, or even a relative. Mood, gestures, nothing. Words, maybe. What might work is seeing if that network has a text story on the visit, and then auto-translate that with Babelfish or whatever. Otherwise, Hungarian is not common to find a translator for, I fear...
DeleteI did see, later in the video, a bulldozer scooping up a body from the same copse of trees, I think, Alex Thomson pointed to. Face-eaten victim, maybe? If driven around from nearby, plopped in the yard to make sure the horror of him was actually seen? (and it was, barely)
The Hungarian video uses some of the same footage as the RT Arabic video. This time it is in HD, with one of the best view of the (missing) locking mechanism of the shed doors.
DeleteYouTube magic brings up this video I had not seen before.
AJE: Zeina Khodr reports the latest from southern Tripoli
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Nqln0-t2Tk
Uploaded by Libyanym on Aug 29, 2011
This August 28th footage pans around the eastern side of the compound. It clarifies a few things: What I thought was a mysterious red shipping container by the gate is in fact the gate itself.
I noticed that too, Petri. I might have noted it on another page. I thought Al J never came. One very strange omission in reporting at the shed is the absence of one of the many Libyan based, bloodthirsty London Guardian journalists at the Yarmouk shed.
DeleteThe Hungarian Hesni Al Ghaoui did blog about it - she quotes 145 bodies but the auto translate gives the impression that her interviewee did the shooting. Obviously something lost in translation... She did take her own photos but these did not make her blog. HVG.HU did report it also :Líbia: tömegsír lehet a titkos börtönnél quoting the same figure of 145. This is an independent report (see below) and it suggests in translation that a survivor is interviewed who escaped along with another. The article does say the reports have become a bit confusing - nobody could answer why a guard's body was lying in the yard! Along with Al-Ghaoui, a cameraman, Rácz László (perhaps Laszlo Racz) and a journalist Nyulas Szabolcs (perhaps Szablocs Nyulas) attended on Sunday 28 August, all from MTI News. The people they talked to requested anonymymity.
Excellent work, Felix. Looks like another survivor to list. I'm doing my own translation on the article, emph. on the tough words with wonky results. will report back. She says people were saying guards were killed because the regime didn't want to pay them (last line). Will check the blog next.
DeleteOn a side-note, I saw the AJ footage way back at the beginning, found its pans useful, and then forgot about it. It doesn't add anything for witnesses or the dead. Another weapons non-expert who thinks the grenades caused the fire and burned some people alive.
Seems they do dash-less word compounding in Hungary. "You" and "I" appearin weird places in full paragraphs, Isolating words helps. I get this from Google, splitting compounds and in a couple cases guessing from context:
DeletePresent at the site was one survivor [sic], who said that he managed to escape when he was [mikor végeztek -when performed] one of the prisoners: [rab-társaival, prisoner-mates]. Also requesting anonymity a man said: A total of 145 people were detained in the building, and the killing of prisoners began when one of the guards opened the prison building. Then the other guards opened fire inside the open door, but later - probably because they ran out of ammunition [ lőszerből] - abandoned the men they believed were dead.
The man and many companions then managed to escape. The guards, when they returned, presumably poured gasoline over the bodies and threw hand grenades on them.
The reports have become a bit confusing and ellentmondóvá [ellent: contradictory, mond: say, óvá: cautionary. (mond óvá = “cautioned against saying”)]…
Despite being cautiously phrased, reports are contradictory anyway. One word in Hungarian sums it up quite well!
@petri the RT footage also appears in good definition in this Spanish upload
Delete@felix
ReplyDeletehttp://i43.tinypic.com/2exppnn.jpg
beardmen, this might be Zouja, Zintan people and where are they looting? In shed area?
Ive another beardman for you,to remember
http://c257.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/43e794c7e64da17f206dd6a027bfe29c3409674292-1326986354-4f183472-620x348.jpg
@hurriya - That's the Sheik of Yarmouk, isn't it, by the harbour,without his head-dress?? I don't know where the ammunition store is. There are two videos of it,(sorry can't put my hands on the other) one without the english speaking wild,wispy bearded man who went to the compound. They make out it was a private house, but it looks more like another compound or part of the Khamis base? It must have been very close to the "massacre" warehouse because the Misrata brigade took the Hungarian journalists to both locations that day.
DeleteBy the way, this is an interesting weapons cache video, uploaded 30 August, with some good road footage. Any idea where it might be exactly?
The photo of Sheikh Hussein Furjani also appears in this NPR article by Lourdes Garcia-Navarro from December 13th.
DeleteAfrican Migrants Caught In Brutal Libyan Limbo
A Libyan security guard stands next to African immigrants in the port of Tripoli on Dec. 5, 2011, after authorities foiled their attempt to illegally immigrate to Europe. Thousands of sub-Saharan Africans have been stranded or imprisoned in Libya, suspected of being mercenaries for former Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi.
Mahmud Turkia / AFP/Getty Images
Why the escapees took the walls and not the entrance?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.3news.co.nz/Ashes-and-bones-evidence-of-Tripoli-massacre/tabid/313/articleID/223782/Default.aspx
there are many more bodies in warehouses and buildings that surround here
al atri pointing the sides to where people escaped @ 2.21
@ felix : face 0.02
Atri's position on the terrain
http://i41.tinypic.com/6quuee.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2efj48l.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/214tbx0.jpg
Atri points out the escapee ways
http://i39.tinypic.com/eu3maf.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/dmr0d0.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/m8h5bb.jpg
entrance
http://i41.tinypic.com/2d6w4jp.jpg
entrance, white building,hangar
http://i42.tinypic.com/v5x4xj.jpg
white building/container, next to hangar, next to entrance, road direct behind entrance
http://i41.tinypic.com/2rorrl1.jpg
entrance direct behind man
http://i44.tinypic.com/mivkh.jpg
entrance, , victim orange blanket in front of white building/container
http://i44.tinypic.com/mivkh.jpg
white building, road visible
http://i43.tinypic.com/m8h5bb.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/2q04svr.jpg
white building , corridor
http://i43.tinypic.com/14b0o7d.jpg
corridor
http://i42.tinypic.com/2hn6haa.jpg
wall behind corridor [with victim laying to hangar]
http://i41.tinypic.com/9hqujn.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/10fpcae.jpg
the position on the terrain of the witnesses
http://i39.tinypic.com/2qsrwyc.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/ws8qdc.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2pov0g4.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/axe4jp.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/s24kuw.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/ak7nzc.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2vbudjk.jpg
wall left to hangar
http://i43.tinypic.com/nn4e0z.jpg
escapee? Mohamed Lamin
http://i40.tinypic.com/1pz6mq.jpg
unknown witness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPweM7-qcLQ
0.08 unknown witness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkRNLzts3lo&feature=related
4.23
http://i40.tinypic.com/261j48x.jpg
http://web3.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/110829/libya-gaddafi-prisoners-amnesty-international?page=3
ReplyDeleteto which wall stand the local rajub?
wow, thanks for that link, Hurriya. check out the video!
Delete@ Hurriyah, agreed, an awesome video I hadn't seen yet. "Dr. Rajub" again, shocked by what he saw. I'm curious if I can place the wall, but not very important. More to add! (eventually)
Deletehttp://tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=6777
ReplyDeleteNext to the warehouse, under a corrugated iron roof, lies a tied-up man who had been shot in the face. Another dead man lies a few steps away. Yet another corpse is behind a low wall. A fourth body lies on a property directly next to the compound. The stench is indescribable.
Abdulatif Rafaii points to two newly dug, empty pits that will be used as mass graves. The larger of the two graves is about 13 meters long, 5 meters wide and 3 meters deep. The smaller is about half the size. The property itself is about 150 meter by 150 meters in size.
http://freeinternetpress.com/story/Warehouse-Of-Horror-Evidence-Of-Massacre-Found-Near-Tripoli-31593.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
TWO BLOCKS AWAY , the badly decomposed bodies of at least 15 other men were found
ReplyDeleteROTTING IN A WOODED GULLY.. One of the men had his hands tied behind his back with plastic flex cuffs, and a rebel commando said seven other bodies had already been carted away.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/world/africa/28libya.html?pagewanted=all
"When we arrived at what looked like a commercial area just off a main road, Libyan men were walking around, covering their faces with cloths and shirts — anything they could find," Stoffel said.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/08/28/libya-massacre.html
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2011/08/28/300-libya-body.jpg
A WALL NEXT TO THE HANGAR
@caustic , did you see the tiny pics, or are they disappeared?
ReplyDeleteal atri pointing the sides to where people escaped @ 2.21
ReplyDelete@ felix : face 0.02
therethere are many more bodies in warehouses and buildings that surround here
al atri pointing the sides to where people escaped @ 2.21
@ felix : face 0.02
Also, (thanks to @hurriya) check out this Global Post video by James Foley with interview of Dr Salem Rajub and new yard witness footage.
ReplyDelete@felix : He is wearing the striped shirt, indicating it is perhaps filmed the same day he appeared in the shed compound .
ReplyDeleteIs this the guy you mean?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjhjRFrOSAs&list=UUzhK_gtHBdosLZ_R8Pa2zfw&index=3&feature=plcp
1.23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUr0yEqvoe8
0.22
http://i43.tinypic.com/2exppnn.jpg
He's the one.
Delete@ felix :
ReplyDeletehttp://legalift.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/amnesty-international-confirms-detention-of-at-least-6-individuals-transferred-from-secret-us-custody-to-libya/
Amnesty has more details about one ghost-detainee:
Khalid al-Sharif, known as Abu Hazem, spent about five years detained in Libya before his release in March 2010. He agreed to talk to Amnesty International. He described his arrest by US and Pakistani forces in Peshawar on 3 April 2002 along with Mohamed Shu’iya, known as Hassan Ruba’i and his detention in various facilities in Afghanistan and Pakistan – in Peshawar, Islamabad, Kabul and Bagram.
Oh oh, same tourist itinerary as Belhaj, Al Saadi & co....
DeleteAlso known as Khalid Hassan Husayn Al Barakat... A Khalid Al-Sherif or Sharif was the NTC military official who presided over the press conference when the fake story about the mass Abu Salim grave was discovered in September 2011.
Delete@Petri : where the local rajub lives , seems to be a mosque :
ReplyDeletehttp://www.3news.co.nz/Ashes-and-bones-evidence-of-Tripoli-massacre/tabid/313/articleID/223782/Default.aspx
local rajub : we were here near this mosque
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM111rqIKXg&feature=related
mohamed lamin/entree and road direct behind victim orange blanket
http://i43.tinypic.com/nn4e0z.jpg
escapee? Mohamed Lamin
The video is Sky News footage.Nothing new at all, sorry.
ReplyDeleteWhere did you get the name M. Lamin? I'd have to watch again to see if he gives any clues of being a survivor. Maybe a maybe escapee?
Tahir el-BahBah
ReplyDeleteAtiri and another prisoner named Taha
Abdulsalam Ataher-Ali
Until the rebels caught17-year-old ABDULSALAM ATAHER-ALI, they confidently asserted that Col Gaddafi was in his birth-place, Sirte, a coastal city half-way between Tripoli and Benghazi which the leader had built up as the base of his personality cult.
Instead, it is thought he went straight from Tripoli south, according to Abdulsalam, a fighter recruited to the Khamis Brigade, named by the most militarily competent Gaddafi son. He was near Khamis when he died, hit by a missile near Tarhouna as their convoy travelled from Tripoli towards Bani Walid a week last Friday.
Earlier that day, though, Abdulsalam had the last known sighting of Col Gaddafi himself.
At around 1.30pm he saw Khamis and the Colonel, along with his daughter Aisha, talking in the Khamis Brigade HQ in southern Tripoli.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8739748/The-hunt-for-Gaddafi-even-if-he-is-in-hell-we-will-chase-him-there-and-fight.html
Note : This base , the last still in hands of loyalists in the city, has been taken on saturday 27 aug after a bombardment of Nato and 7 hours fighting , the rebels said,while Gadhafi left Tripoli for Sirte on August 18, according to Daou