Gunning down Partygoers?

October 7 Massacre in Israel, part 3: Gunning down Partygoers?

November 30, 2023

update 12/3

< Part 2: Who was Behind the Kibbutz Massacres?

3A)  Mistaken Identity and Partygoers

Max Blumenthal's article gives some examples of fatal or nearly-fatal mistaken identity in the IDF response to the October 7 attacks.  

"Adi Ohana was shot dead by Israeli police near his home after being mistaken for a Palestinian guerrilla. “An innocent man was killed in the most negligent way possible,” his niece complained. Israeli media is now filling up with reports of the military gunning down fellow Israelis, even as they were defending their homes from Palestinian gunmen."

A lot of other people were in a worse position. Hundreds were there for the Nova electronic music festival, nowhere near their homes, and were left running about in the area and trying to drive away. To the IDF, they might look like terrorists running around, maybe headed to kill civilians, or trying to escape a crime scene. 

Some partygoers came close to being killed by the IDF, but survived to explain how those weren't Hamas bullets. Others would be less fortunate, leaving us less informed.

Israeli security forces also opened fire on fleeing Israelis whom they mistook for Hamas gunmen. A resident of Ashkelon named Danielle Rachiel described nearly being killed after escaping from the Nova music festival when it was attacked by militants from Gaza. “As we reached the roundabout [at a kibbutz], we saw Israeli security forces!” Rachiel recalled. “We held our heads down [because] we automatically knew they’d be suspicious of us, in a small beat-up car… from the same direction the terrorists were coming from. Our forces began shooting at us!”

“When our forces fired at us, our windows shattered,” she continued. It was only when they shouted in Hebrew, “We’re Israelis!” that the shooting stopped, and they were taken to safety.

Initially, 260 people were reported killed at the rave. I did a manual count of entries at Ha'aretz where 327 were specified, noting that others likely were, by appearance or listing between attendees, and just didn't have it specified. Soon, an updated count of 364 confirmed deaths was published, and it may be even more. 

I Watched The Hamas Massacre Film. Here Are My Thoughts. - YouTube

some fighters want to save ammo for soldiers, spare on person when they decide he's not a soldier

I wouldn't deny that Hamas fighters killed quite a few partygoers. Some were shot dead with rifles in their cars. There are several cases on video of Hamas shooting and tossing grenades at young people hiding in bomb shelters. Even if the plan was to take captives and not to wantonly kill, some killing was surely allowed and committed, at least to prevent escapes and encourage surrenders, and maybe just to kill whoever they couldn't nab, or to kill as many as possible. 

Still, for all their efforts, Hamas didn't get many captives here: According to October7map.com, 364 partygoers were killed and just 27+ Kidnapped, 2 of them safely returned as of 11/27.  This is like one of the kibbutz attacks (see part 2) where they mainly killed rather than kidnapping - those cases seemed to involve battles with the IDF sometimes ending with massive Israeli tank fire that causes many of the deaths. Is it the same here, but even worse? 

If there were an element of an expanded "Hannibal directive" at play here - to kill Israeli civilians rather than let them be taken captive ...  vs. in the kibbutzim ... pure accident is also more likely to play a role, including the role of blanket excuse for a "mass Hannibal" of Israeli youth.

3B) Apache Attack

The problem of mistaken identity was no better, and the possibility of mass carnage much greater, when the guns were heavier and operating from Apache helicopters. For now I'm not sure about details like how many helicopters were used, where from and when they arrived, if they were duly informed of the rave, etc. But if there were a "Hannibal" option at play, to make it seem accidental, you might tell the pilots about thousands of terrorists, fail to tell them about the rave, then send them to that area to decide "there's our thousands of terrorists. Open fire!"

As I gather, the Apache mainly employs "Hellfire" and/or "Hydra 70" missiles, and a chain gun cannon that rapid-fires 30mm rounds like huge, explosive bullets. That's deadly stuff when paired with air supremacy over unprotected civilians in the desert, with no cover past their explosive cars. And just as everyone looks suspicious on security camera, whoever tried to flee might have looked like a target. 

Max Blumenthal's piece cites Israeli reports:  “The Apache pilots testify that they fired a huge amount of munitions, emptied the ‘belly of the helicopter’ in minutes, flew to re-arm and returned to the air, again and again. But it didn’t help and they understand it."

The Apache helicopters appear to have focused on vehicles streaming back into Gaza from the Nova electronic music festival and nearby kibbutzes, attacked cars with apparent knowledge that Israeli captives could be inside. They also fired on unarmed people exiting cars or walking on foot through the fields on the periphery of Gaza.

A report on the Apache squadrons by the Israeli outlet Yedioth Aharanoth noted that “the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian… The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the targets.”

From where I sit, it's difficult to say how many people Hamas just killed vs. tried to kidnap, only to have Israeli forces blow them off the road. My hunch is the latter category is the much larger one, that the Israelis killed hundreds of their own people just among the rave-goers. 

The IDF would later release video of hundreds of destroyed vehicles said to originate at the rave, and probably all but a few of them did. Some 40% of them (visual estimate) are burnt-out and partly melted, with many all but flattened by some powerful blasts from above. Some or all of this was potentially done by Hamas, say with mortars, although it would be hard to hit a moving car with one. And some or all damage could be from the Apache attack, that would have a better chance of hitting the target.

Possibly worthwhile OSINT task: examine car damage seen up-close, looking for 30mm holes, etc. I still haven't ... 

Blumenthal:

"Among the most gruesome videos of the aftermath of October 7, also published on the Telegram account of South Responders, shows a car full of charred corpses (below) at the entrance of Kibbutz Be’eri. The Israeli government has portrayed these casualties as Israeli victims of sadistic Hamas violence. However, the melted steel body and collapsed roof of the car, and the comprehensively scorched corpses inside, evidence a direct hit from a Hellfire missile."

As with some of the cars above, the roof was blown in by a powerful blast from above. Two bodies in the front seats are just lumps of yellowish charcoal, and the 2 in the back seem blasted backwards. At least one serious chest wound from is visible on the left, looking more like shrapnel than a bullet. These could be captives, but their hands aren't bound. They could be Hamas fighters, Palestinian civilian looters, or rave-goers not yet captured who were just trying to escape.

The scene is promoted as "Israeli couple burned alive in a car," maybe with their drivers, killed somehow by Hamas terrorists - maybe each was stabbed to death in front of each others' eyes, then they were burned alive, and never mind how the car got damaged. 

IDF Reserve pilot Col. Nof Erez doesn't seem to have direct, inside knowledge of the day's events, but when interviewed by Ha'aretz, he said "the Hannibal directive was probably deployed" for this hostage situation involving both civilians and military. But it was not the isolated kidnapping they had trained for; "What we saw here was a MASS HANNIBAL. There were many openings in the fence, thousands of people in many different vehicles, both with hostages and without hostages. It was an impossible mission to identify and to do what [the pilots] did." In such a chaotic situation, they would almost surely kill some hostages and perhaps even civilians fleeing from the terrorists. https://twitter.com/WarWatchs/status/1726671271017013494

Asa Winstanley, Electronic Intifada: "In a video posted only one week after 7 October, Major Graeme said that Israeli detainees in Palestinian custody were “possibly killed by Israeli airstrikes when the Israeli Air Force attacked vehicles that were returning into Gaza.” ... Major Graeme explained that after the airstrikes “there was some bodies there that the special forces went and collected.” Winstanley noted "If accurate, this account suggests that Israel is trying to cover up evidence that – whether intentionally or otherwise – it killed its own civilians on 7 October."

3C) A Debunked Video?

A "leaked" video was said to show helicopters firing on fleeing partygoers, like reports had suggested. On November 13, Newsweek found this false, deciding all civilians were killed by Hamas, and accepting the claims of the IDF - who had first published the video (at the end) - that it shows attacks only on Hamas militants. GeoConfirmed on X seem to have identified the spot - the border near Nahal Oz and Kfar Azza, a few kilometers north of the party. Thus it was probably "Hamas terrorists returning" to Gaza and had "no relation with the festival at all." 

I don't think that's certain at all, or necessarily relevant either way. Even accepting the location. Hamas often returned to Gaza with civilian hostages, from the party or the raided kibbutzim. Nahal Oz and Kfar Aza were nearby. Captives from there or even further might be brough back this way, depending what re-crossings were available. And some partygoers might as well, especially if they had fled north only to be captured nearby.

In the longer of two close views, we can see at least six people, 5 running away, one crouching next to the car, when it's hit and explodes. The runners seem to continue, but might've been gunned down after the video cut. They seem to wear a mix of light and dark shirts, not military uniforms, although it could be a mix of civilian captives and Hamas captors all running from a common foe. It could also be Palestinian civilian looters. 

A second scene shows at least 4 people running from another car before it's hit, and other scenes show a driving car destroyed and people fleeing on foot being shot down. Most likely, some but not all of those killed were militants.  

3D) Kibbutz Hostages Under Apache Fire

As Max Blumenthal first noted while appearing on Going Underground, there was at least one witness account he found after that article of civilians killed by helicopter attack. He was kind of enough to share the link with me: I thought this was my chance to escape, but I was wrong. They captured me. | October7 Blog - see also here: 

https://www.jta.org/2023/10/16/israel/i-decided-to-play-dead-my-son-is-still-missing-a-survivors-account-from-kibbutz-nir-oz

Witness: Neomit Dekel-Chen, 63, from Kibbutz Nir Oz. She tried to hide in her safe room until the terrorists smoked her out and then captured her. They and some hostages headed towards Gaza by the back fields, perhaps thinking - as the fighters in Be'eri did - that the IDF had the main roads closed off. Perhaps they did. It was around noon at the latest. "We walked for about 150 meters on the road toward Gaza, kidnappers, looters, and hostages, then Neomit and others - including her friend with "three little girls, two of them only 3 years old" - were carried in a cart pulled by "a tuk-tuk vehicle" (aka auto-rickshaw - a goofy little thing). 

"They continued to drive with us in the back, towards Gaza, when an IDF helicopter appeared above us. At some point the helicopter shot at the terrorists, the driver and the others. There was screaming in the tuk-tuk. All the terrorists were dead and we were alive, except for one for one of the women with us. She had died in the arms of her daughter, who had come to the kibbutz to visit and now would not leave her mother."

That's one resident of Nir Oz - unnamed here - who will be listed as killed by Hamas, when really she was killed alongside them. This does sound accidental, however, as if they did a decent but imperfect job of just hitting the captors. The others might have suffered injuries, but it seems they were okay to run. Aside from the distraught daughter, they ran, with Neomit carrying one of the younger girls. They headed more "towards the fields" than towards Gaza. 

Then, perhaps due to the suspicious running, it seems the helicopters attacked them, or something near them, a second time. "We were 50 meters into the fields when I was hit with shrapnel in my head, knee and back. I was bleeding." She doesn't say if the anyone else in the group was injured.

She poses this as lucky for her. More terrorists soon passed by, on her own tractor they had stolen. They took the others with them, but Neomit played dead. Because of the blood it worked, and they left her. She found water, and walked the fields as things quieted down. She managed to get back to the Kibbutz around 1:30 PM (it was in flames, and the army still hadn't arrived), and then to her daughter's house.

So that's at least one woman injured and at least one woman killed in repeated helicopter attacks on "terrorists returning to Gaza," as they might have seemed to some gung-ho pilots eager to vaporize terrorists. Even more clearly than the "leaked" video, this had nothing to do with the rave. And yet it matters.

3E) "She was raped and burned alive"

Once again starting with Max Blumenthal at the Gray Zone, and seemingly off-topic, we switch to an allegation of rape by Hamas terrorists that was said to be visually proven. 

In perhaps the most unsettling document presented by the Israeli government, reporters were treated to video showing “a partially burned woman’s corpse, with a mutilated head… The dead woman’s dress is pulled up to her waist and her underpants have been removed,” according to the Times of Israel.

Daniel Amram, the most popular private news blogger in Israel, tweeted the video of the woman’s burned corpse, claiming that “she was raped and burned alive.”

Having seen the footage himself, Max didn't buy that reading. "In fact, the young woman appeared to have been killed instantly by a powerful blast. And she seemed to have been removed from the car in which she was seated – and which may have belonged to a captor from Gaza. The vehicle was comprehensively destroyed and situated on a dirt field, as many others attacked by Apache helicopters were. ... many female attendees dressed in skimpy attire, and her bent limbs were typical of a body that had been seated in a car after rigor mortis, Israeli pundits and officials ran with the claim she had been raped."

Now I have seen the footage as well - it was posted to hamas-massacre.net as "The body of a woman who was burned to death." 

Add 12/3: the site has some new images and a new category - https://www.hamas-massacre.net/categories/murdered-in-the-streets - including a still view of this victim as "Woman killed and left on the street" - shown at right (end add). 

The video was filmed at night, probably 12+ hours after the attack. It's uncensored but kind of blurry, and vague on the underwear issue - I'll accept they're absent, which would be odd for someone in a dress that wispy. That plus the spread legs does raise suspicion. But I agree she suffered an instant death from a blast to the back of the head (see split scalp and broken skull edge visible), and she is seen burned next to a burned car with her knees bent. But I think Max missed some big clue in the massive wound to the woman's right thigh and the way her right arm sticks up in the air.

That the leg wound has a width of about 28-30 cm if the woman between 5'2" and 5'6" tall. The Apache uses M230 chain gun that fires 30mm shells (M230 chain gun - Wikipedia) - full shell size shown below. 

She was likely shot across the right thigh with one of these - apparently hit from the left, making a nasty black bruise on her inner thigh - with a downward angle to the right. This happened while her thigh was horizontal - perhaps seated in a car, or maybe crouching on the ground (especially with upper body turned to face the left), or maybe running with right knee up. 

These shells explode on solid contact (Wikipedia): "The M789 is the U.S. Apache's main tactical round, a High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP) ammunition cartridge. ... designed to fragment upon impact, killing unprotected, standing people up to about 5 ft (1.5 m) away under optimum conditions." But her leg was just ripped open, not blown off. As I reason it, a shell might rip across her leg without its centrally-place fuze being triggered (diagram). 

In that case, it would detonate on the next solid contact. If that was a car door inches away, we'd see major explosive damage to her leg. I propose she was in the open, either crouching or running when first hit. She fell forward just as the shell hit the ground to her right and a bit behind her, or behind her left-turned head and back, and finally detonated. This took off the back of her head, blowing it open, and probably caused damage all up the back side, and some on the right side, mostly invisible here (there is at least one likely shrapnel mark on the right cheek).

That was my best guess for fatal injuries, but it's just a guess and there are other possibilities. I think it makes sense, but maybe it doesn't. I'm more certain about the next part.

For that right arm to stick out that way against gravity does not mean, as it might appear to some, that she was fending off an attacker and her arm froze that way when she finally died. A newly dead arm will flop down right away. What this means is that her body was originally in a different position: face-down and turned facing a bit left, right arm bent with palm on the ground and elbow up is all that makes sense. It would take some 8-12 hours or so for rigor mortis to develop so fully that her arm stays that way despite gravity -What Are the Stages of Rigor Mortis? 6 Stages (medicinenet.com)

Her arm now has to spite gravity because someone rolled her body over into this position, at least 8-12 hours after her death (and maybe longer - the rigor state fades off more slowly, so that this image could be up to 36 hours or so after death, on the second night). 

The new position would make the head wound less obvious, allowing for other apparent causes of death. It was only after this that I think her legs were spread, by the scene manipulator(s), to suggest rape, and her underwear was likely removed then, for the same reason (anyone wearing a dress that skimpy would probably wear panties too). I think it can only be in this position that her corpse was lit up and partly burned next to this car, separately from its own burning hours before. This might hide clues or be done just to suggest she was "burned alive" to heighten the horror.  

Good news: this poor woman probably died instantly, and did not suffer rape or burning alive. Bad news: There might be some innocent explanation, but this suggests some pretty twisted manipulation after the fact. Who could and would do such a thing, long after Hamas was chased away? There were the ZAKA and other rescuers, Israeli police ... it almost has to be someone in that class, someone among them with a sick agenda to exaggerate Hamas' crimes and/or obscure Israel's.

Above, "Major Graeme" had said “there was some bodies there that the special forces went and collected.” This may be one of those gathered up to hide the clues. But if so, the provocative pose made it irresistible as propaganda, so it got shown off anyway, luckily for the cause of truth and justice.

3F) A Limited Admission?

Israel admits it killed its own at Nova music festival (thecradle.co)

"An Israeli police investigation into the Hamas attack on the Nova music festival near the Gaza border on 7 October revealed that an Israeli attack helicopter killed some of the attendees, Haaretz reported on 18 November." 

"According to a police source, an investigation into the incident showed that an Israeli combat helicopter that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at Hamas fighters and other Palestinians who crossed through the border fence from Gaza into Israel, but also fired on some of the Israelis attending the music festival. According to the police, 364 people were killed there."

Article link: https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000

Nothing there says the IDF killed the full 364, or any more than a few. But even this limited acknowledgement is not accepted by Israeli authorities, with the police leadership coming down hard on Ha'aretz for casting doubt on the official mythology and undermining the drive for war. "Foundation for the Defense of Democracies" spoke up for official sources over a free media, lamenting how "a flimsy Israeli newspaper article" citing "unnamed Israeli police source who said a few revelers may have been mistaken for terrorists and killed by an Israeli military helicopter" was being used by Palestinians and others to deny or minimize Hamas' actions. They cited an Israeli police statement:  “Contrary to the publication, the police investigation does not refer to the activity of the IDF forces, and therefore no indication was given of any harm to civilians caused by any aerial activity at the site.” It might be true, but it's not something they even looked into, or saw among the things they looked at, or have any idea about ... it's not something they officially speak about, anyway. Others shouldn't speak about it either. That's what will be investigated only AFTER Hamas has been eradicated.

Another citation adds: 

"The preliminary findings of the ongoing national inquiry, spearheaded by law enforcement and communicated to the international media, cast a spotlight on the profound and reprehensible acts committed by Hamas terrorists during the Nova music festival. Any effort to downplay the severity of these atrocities, as depicted in the misleading Haaretz newspaper publication, deserves unequivocal rejection." 

The "inquiry" is into how they can propagate a certain view in the public mind. Tip: that's not what inquiries into crimes do. That's called propaganda, and this is word play. But it's their basis to demand "Particularly at this time, we call on the media to show responsibility in their reporting, and to base their journalism on official sources only." We are in 100% war propaganda mode and only we can be trusted. Relevant facts that don't serve that purpose must be rejected. There can be no independent media checks on this.

Next: part 4: Visual Evidence, Seen and Unseen

Who was Behind the Kibbutz Massacres?

October 7 Massacre in Israel, p. 2: Who was Behind the Kibbutz Massacres?

November 26, 2023

< Part 1: Which Israelis are "Making Up Stories?"

2A) Inside the "Be'eri Massacre": The Dagan House 

The most detailed account of IDF hostage elimination in the October 7 massacre comes from a woman named Yasmin Porat, who has given at least 4 interviews.

10/15 Kan News, Haboker Hazeh interview: Israeli forces shot their own civilians, kibbutz survivor says | The Electronic Intifada 10/15 with updates: "Although it no longer appears on the Kan website, there can be little doubt about the recording’s authenticity." By October 23: "Porat's testimony mysteriously disappeared from the "Haboker Hazeh" program, leading to rampant speculation about censorship." 

10/24 CNN interview, somehow omitting all the controversial details: https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/24/hostage-hamas-released-israel-ebof-sot-vpx.cnn

11/15 Kan News, Kalman Liberman program, including 2nd hand testimony from fellow survivor Hadas Dagan: https://omny.fm/shows/kan-news/4-26 - 11/25 analysis Israeli October 7 posterchild was killed by Israeli tank, eyewitnesses reveal - The Grayzone - Israeli child “burned completely” by Israeli tank fire at kibbutz | The Electronic Intifada

11/18 https://nationalpost.com/news/world/family-gathers-for-a-farewell-ceremony-for-liel-a-12-year-old-victim-of-hamas

From these sources, here's a detailed narrative: Yasmin and her boyfriend Tal Katz weren't locals, but came for the Nova party. They had just left that when a rocket attack occurred. They took shelter in a house in Be'eri with others until they were discovered by Hamas gunmen and taken captive. They were driven to another house with yet other prisoners. There were 15 captives there total: Yasmin and Tal, the 12-year-old twins, Liel and Yanai Hetzroni and their great-aunt Ayala, and 10 other hostages, "most of them elderly kibbutz members," including house owners Adi and Hadas Dagan. 

The Hamas fighters "treated us humanely," Porat said, meeting their needs and calming their fears as possible. “They did not abuse us. … No one treated us violently.” She was told and believed “The objective was to kidnap us to Gaza, not to murder us.” She says that fellow survivor Hadas Dagan told her that “There were no executions, or anything like that. At least not the people with her.”

A Hamas commander decided the IDF had already blocked the roads out of town, preventing their escape (everyone else seems to think he was mistake and they could still have escaped). He asked Yasmin to call the police, thinking that could help them get around the blockade and/or survive. "She said she made seven calls to the police during the afternoon, at the behest of the terrorists. In one of the calls, the terrorists put the frantic Liel on the phone, because they thought Porat was being too controlled in her conversation and they wanted a sobbing child to get on the call." 

Two hours later, the police arrived. This time allows for a briefing on special tactics for this situation. But when they arrive, Porat says, "A gun battle takes place that our police started." 100+ shots were fired by both sides, leaving hostages and kidnappers ducking for cover, It sounds like one shot grazed Yasmin's leg, leaving just a bruise. 

The commander was talking with police, wanting to surrender. Around 5:30 PM they had him strip and go outside with that Yasmin lady they spoke with. He walked over with her in front at gunpoint until the police took her and arrested him. In the CNN interview, she seems to say that other Hamas fighters had threatened to shoot the commander for ditching them like that, but for some reason they never did. She was safe, but "my boyfriend and the others are still there with 40 terrorists because just one surrendered." She never mentions the army arriving or just how it was that "no one stayed alive." 

On her way out, Yasmin saw 5 or 6 hostages on the grass outside, wounded and/or just laying low "from the massacre, in the line of fire between our forces and the terrorists." Interviewer: "they could have been shot by our own forces while they were trying to eliminate the kidnappers?" Porat: "Absolutely. It's painful for me, they fired on everyone there, including the hostages." On the grass: her boyfriend Tal, another man named Tal, house owner Adi Dagan and his wife Hadas, 1-2 others.  

It seems she remained on-site to observe the following events, probably hoping for Tal to be freed. She stayed involved, explaining in the 11/15 interview: 

“I sat there with the commander of the unit,” Porat recalled, “and I described to him what the house looks like, and where the terrorists are, and where the hostages are. I actually drew it for him: ‘Look, here, on the lawn there are four hostages that are lying this way on the lawn. Here are two that are lying under the terrace. And in the living room there is a woman lying like this, and a woman lying like this.” Porat explained, “I told [the Israeli commander] about the twins (Yanai and Liel Hatzroni) and their great-aunt (Ayala), I didn’t see them. You know what, when I left, they were the only ones I didn’t see. I heard Liel the whole time, so I know for certain that they were there.. I tried to explain to [the commander] that from somewhere near the kitchen, that’s where I heard the screams coming from. I didn’t see her, but I heard her, and I heard where the screams were coming from. I tried to explain to them where all the hostages were.”

The timeline is a bit confused, but 2-3 hours after her release, the Israelis opted to end the standoff, perhaps using that information.

10/15: "The fighting apparently ended at 8:30 after insane crossfire. Two tank shells were fired into the house. It's a small kibbutz house, nothing big. You saw it on the news. ... and at that moment they were all killed. There was quiet, except for one survivor that came out of the garden, Hadas." 

11/15: "At around 7:30 pm, after some four hours of crossfire consisting of “hundreds of thousands of bullets,” Porat peered from behind Israeli lines and observed an Israeli tank firing two shells into the small kibbutz house." Someone explained to her it was "to break the walls, in order to help purify the house.” But there was no need to enter, as the situation was ended (purified?) by those 2 shots. Everyone was "killed in the crossfire," not just possibly but "undoubtedly" killed by the Israeli side. 

Yasmin says the damaged Dagan house was seen "on the news." I'm not sure which house it is, seen where ... it could be this one, from the Be'eri massacre Wikipedia page. To me this looks like 2+ impact of differing power, perhaps from tank shells (which Hamas did not have) and/or, perhaps, a powerful RPG, which they might have had. 

Note: I'm not expert enough to decide exact weapon was used. Almost down the line, what could be Israeli missile could be a heavy Hamas mortar, a tank shell or maybe a heavy RPG shell, etc. Any of them could damage a building, blow in a car's roof and set it ablaze, as far as I know. Some expert analysis could help narrow down the possibilities, but for me, the evidence is mainly too ambiguous to easily pin the blame on either side for all that happened. A more expert opinion might help here.

Several houses were damaged, most of them less visibly, and most or all suffered fires like the kind that often follow such attacks, but could also have been started by Hamas trying to smoke people out of their shelters. From the Gray Zone article on events at the Dagan house, a picture of a house with consistent damage used for illustration, but that I found is specified as a different house. "Mati and Amir Weiss, the parents of kibbutz security-team member Yuval, were at their home, pictured here, when Hamas fighters burst in. He was unable to reach them in time. REUTERS /Ronen Zvulun" https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/israel-palestinians-kibbutz-attack/

Maybe it's this place? (image from around)

Dagan told Porat how the tank shells detonating hurled her in the air, leaving her "covered in her husband’s blood" and seemingly paralyzed for a few minutes. "Upon regaining consciousness, Dagan realized that the captives who had been lying on either side of her – her husband Adi Dagan and Porat’s partner, Tal Katz – had just died from tank shell shrapnel. “When I opened my eyes, I saw that my Adi is dying,” Porat recalls Dagan saying. “Your Tal also stopped moving at that point.” 

Total killed: 13 hostages including 2 children, and some 40 Hamas terrorists - apparently none of them killed by Hamas terrorists. Adi Dagan was confirmed dead prior to October 9 (Times of Israel). "Tal was declared missing for several days until his body was found." His red dot placed among the deaths at the rave (Oct7map). Yanai Hetzroni was identified but Liel and great-aunt Ayala were presumed kidnapped - not just missing - as of October 26 (post - linked article now 404). Aunt Ayala was identified prior to a November 15 funeral (for her) and 'farewell ceremony" for Liel, burying some belongings in lieu of a body. Giving Up Hope, Family of 12-year Old Israeli, Missing Since Hamas Massacre, Says Goodbye - Israel News - Haaretz.com Maybe they hadn't been informed that Liel's fragmentary remains were identified on November 13 12-year-old girl missing since Oct. 7 found dead in Be'eri - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com). They were found in the wreckage of the house she was last seen in.

Over the following days, Israeli official accounts announced Liel's murder by Hamas to refresh the horror and the hate.  Former PM Naftali Bennett: "Liel Hetzroni of Kibbutz Beeri was murdered in her home by Hamas monsters.” Israel on X: “All that remains of 12 year old Liel Hetzroni is ash and bone fragments. ... #HamasMassacre" 

Well, 100% of the surviving witnesses disagree. Hadas Dagan confirmed to Porat that it was the IDF's tank shells and ensuing fire that turned Liel into charred pieces: “‘The girl did not stop screaming for all those hours … [but] when those two shells hit, [Liel] stopped screaming. There was silence then.” Porat concluded, “So what can you take away from that? That after that very massive incident, the shooting, which concluded with two shells, that is pretty much when everyone died.” It's not clear if the soldiers could hear Liel wailing and then the contrasting silence. But Porat says she explained all the people present and just where they were. And the police had heard from the hysterical young girl inside. And yet the IDF and everyone then pretended to have no idea, to think the girl had been somehow kidnapped away from that scene. Maybe by the time they found otherwise, they could forget that they had killed her.

That's not the whole picture at Be'eri, representing only about 10% of those killed. But it is a disturbing bit of it. 

2B) Inside the Be'eri Massacre: Elsewhere

Another account comes from Tuval Escapa who, as Blumenthal explains, is "a member of the security team for Kibbutz Be’eri," who "set up a hotline to coordinate between kibbutz residents and the Israeli army" Escapa was away on business and managed this by phone, while his partner "was besieged in her home shelter at the time." She didn't survive that weekend. This account has plural "houses" shelled before it was all over, perhaps including his own. 

“According to him, only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions — including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages — did the IDF complete the takeover of  the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Be’eri people were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.” A growing number of reports indicate Israeli forces responsible for Israeli civilian and military deaths following October 7 attack – Mondoweiss 

A quite detailed November 2 Reuters report agrees "It wasn’t until the following day, Monday, that the IDF declared the attack over," suggesting some kind of hostage situation(s), perhaps, had dragged it out for some two days. But there's no mention of how these might have resolved. Tanks aren't mentioned at all. According to this article, the "Battle of Be'eri" was fought against some 150 Hamas fighters by lightly-armed security guards (with the heavy guns locked away and the key missing on the killed commander), along with some disorganized volunteers, and army units that only came and went most of the day.  Some "slow" troops arrived around 2pm, and by around 6PM, they had commenced battle. The article ends its coverage with a volunteer rescuer killed by Hamas fighters around 10am on Sunday. Some 24-36 hours or crucial events are simply omitted.

Lt Col Salman Habaka, who would later die fighting in Gaza, "was among the first Israeli troops to arrive ... and later described his part in the fighting in Be’eri in a video interview." (The Guardian) He saw it differently, or saw a different part of it, or was just sent out to contradict the above claims: “I arrived in Be’eri to see Brig Gen Barak Hiram and the first thing he asks me is to fire a shell into a house [where Hamas were sheltering],” he said. “The first question that comes to your mind is – are there hostages there? We did all the preliminary checks before we decided to fire a shell into a house. Then we went from house to house to free the hostages. " Apparently he did not fire his tank, since hostages were inside. But he was asked to, despite that fact? Instead, they went house-to-house. "And that’s how the fighting was until the evening. In the kibbutz and in the streets." 

Maybe it was only after evening fell that the operation changed, and he just didn't mention that. After that, at 7:30 or 8:30 perhaps someone else followed another request to blast terrorists along 13 hostages, including children. And aside from that house, the stand off lasted 2 more days to Monday night before the final turns with more shelling of occupied homes and some 130 killed in the end.

Consider: tank commander Habaka said "as soon as people heard the rumbling of the tanks, they suddenly had a moment of security," while Yasmin Porat "described a sense of panic as she watched the tank trundle into the small community." 

Some wonder if the young female tank commanders celebrated in this video were responsible, but they came from the south and fought at Sufa and Holit - one recalls being told to fire on a building with terrorists inside. She asked if there are civilians inside, and he said "I don't know. Just shoot." She says she checked, like Habaka did, found there were civilians, and used lesser means instead. 

The site October7map.com does not cite these accounts in its explanation of the "Hostage Situation in Be'eri." Citing one news article, they relate how Hamas "captured around 50 civilians, some seen in "harrowing video footage ... being led barefoot along the streets to the Kibbutz dining hall. When Israeli security forces arrived at the scene, the terrorists barricaded themselves in the kibbutz dining hall, beginning an 18-hour long stand-off. With the arrival of additional Israeli security forces, the hostages were liberated and the terrorists largely neutralized."

Perhaps another 100+ were also held in other spots and later killed rather than freed. If so, this report doesn't mention it. No one's even directly refuting the alleged final turn of events, they just ignore it and focus on more pleasant episodes that keeps blame on Hamas and off of the IDF.

Same site: "The chilling aftermath of the Be'eri massacre exposed a scene of merciless brutality, with approximately 80% of the recovered bodies showing signs of torture." Perhaps 100% of that "torture" was instead caused by IDF weapons exploding. "Particularly harrowing were the accounts of a ZAKA official describing two piles of ten children each, with their hands bound together, burnt to death." However many bound kids were found bound is a number of captives Hamas probably meant to take alive to Gaza until something went wrong.

Reuters, November 2: "Reuters identified at least 42 residential buildings – nearly a quarter of those in the kibbutz – with substantial structural damage," mainly in the western Olives and Vineyard districts (a map is provided). "This is likely an undercount; only buildings with burn scars or obvious major structural damage were included." From a short drone view attached to this report:

Hidden at the far end of this view is where tanks left new tracks, as seen from a different angle in another video (at right). I didn't read the entire Reuters report, but the word "tank" doesn't appear once. It seems that all damage is assumed by Hamas, using whatever weapons, and all deaths and injuries are assumed to be their work alone. 

Two soldiers and a ZAKA rescuer claim to have seen bound bodies executed with gunshots to the head, and two women disrobed as if raped. But others describe scenes likely to result from tank fire or the like. "a young person, burned beyond recognition ... and both forearms were missing. ... two children whose skulls had been crushed and had knife [shrapnel?] wounds on their bodies. Their parents lay dead nearby, he said, with similar wounds." 

Stories of people shot and/or grenaded in their safe rooms appear in the Reuters report and others. these accounts are numerous, detailed, and plausible, along with the efforts to smoke people out. To kill Israeli civilians was surely allowed, if not the main plan. If that was to abduct as many as possible and get them back to Gaza, they would need to do it quickly before the IDF could rally and prevent their escape. They might have time to try brute force to get at some resistant people and encourage them to surrender. They could shoot people then offer medical aid - carrot and stick. But for the most part, they probably would not have time to engage in much rape or intricate torture or dismemberment, managing who has to watch what, and so on, as alleged.

Death toll review: Oct7map lists 85+ Murdered, 26+ Kidnapped, including 13 Kidnap Survivors (safely retuned as of 11/26), 4 Missing. Different sources give a final death toll in Be'eri of 112+, or 130+. Ha'aretz listed 99 names when I checked, including a 10-month-old girl, who was then de-listed (maybe re-added since). Other infants may have been killed and never listed. ZAKA head Yossi Landau said they recovered 280 bodies in Be'eri, 80% showing signs of "torture." Some 150 terrorists as said + 130 civilians as said = 280. That adds up pretty well. At least 10% of the civilians (13 hostages including 2 children) were almost surely killed by the IDF and not Hamas.

2C) What about the Other Kibbutz Massacres?

It's not clear if Be'eri was the exception or if events unfolded similarly in the other kibbutz attacks, but some evidence suggests others went the same way. The site October 7 map.com (https://oct7map.com/) shows the affected kibbutzim (villages) with red dots for the killed and black dots for those kidnapped clustered around them. An interesting pattern emerges.

Yasmin Porat said that it seemed like Hamas' objective was "to kidnap us to Gaza, not to murder us.” If that were the plan and it worked smoothly in any kibbutz, we would see a few deaths of security guards, a number of kidnappings, and no additional murders. If the plan was thwarted completely, then no Hamas fighters escaped, at least not with captives as planned, but sadly many civilians might wind up killed instead of whisked away. 

There may be smooth examples, but it's not clear if so. Nir Yitzakh seems closest, with 7 dead including "several" defenders and 7 kidnapped. But even there a clash with the IDF was involved. Most other villages witnessed their own battles where Hamas fighters were pinned down and killed, quite likely while holed up with some their hostages just like at Be'eri.

Seven examples with notes mainly from Oct7map:

Nir Yitzhak: 14-hour ordeal (7am to 9 pm): "The kibbutz's security squad bravely confronted the attackers to safeguard the community. The head of the kibbutz's domestic security and several security squad members lost their lives during the conflict. Numerous civilians were taken hostage. Responding Lotar unit members engaged the terrorists at the kibbutz, neutralizing the majority and subduing the remainder." 7 kidnapped, 7 killed, one specified "on duty" and "several" others should be too. If 7 defenders were killed, that means 0 civilian murders to achieve these 7 abductions.

Nirim: 3 security personnel, 5 civilians killed, and just 4 kidnapped before village defenders rallied and chased Hamas out of the town long before they commenced any mass abduction or mass killing, and long before the IDF showed up. Here, perhaps Hamas unnecessarily killed 5 civilians before they were forced to stop. Or maybe they got out of town with 5 other hostages but had their car(s) hit by Apache helicopters and had to take the blame for their grisly torture and murder there on the roadside?

Nir Oz - 27+Murdered (~34 red dots), 75+ Kidnapped, 16 of them now returned home safely. Haaretz: 27+ deaths listed - 3 girls of Siman Tov family age 4,6,6 killed with their parents and a girl, 12 = at least 4 kids at Nir Oz listed.

"For 10 hours Nir Oz residents fought desperately to keep them at bay. ... Military personnel arrived later in the afternoon to evacuate and assist the surviving residents." (Mapping the Massacres (oct7map.com))  Some buildings wound up burned, with some bullet marks seen around evidencing a firefight - but reports say the gunmen all escaped "before help arrived"  https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1723340892491178069

Alex Gandler on X: "Most houses burned completely, those that haven't been burned show signs of struggle and death." Photo: bloody handprint and explosive fragmentation marks on the same wall. Perhaps Hamas shelled people in their homes after circumventing the guards, just to be vile or because they resisted - or perhaps, as in Be'eri, this was caused after "help arrived."

Kfar Aza: Killed: 48 civilians + and 23 on duty + ~5 unnamed red dots (total ~76). Kidnapped: 20 - none returned yet. IDF arrived before Hamas left. There was a battle, after which Hamas fighters were left lying around dead - supposedly unrelated to the damaged and burned homes and killed civilians, including "At least 40 babies, some beheaded" in this one village alone (as some claimed) - Kfar Aza kibbutz attack: Children, women, elderly 'butchered' in Hamas attacks on border communities, IDF says | CNN

Holit: 3 killed on duty, 14 civilians killed, 4 kidnapped. "By early afternoon, a Shaldag Unit reached the kibbutz, engaging and neutralizing ten terrorists with the support of armored units." - gung-ho female tank commanders deployed here and at Sufa - in Holit, one says she was told to fire on terrorists, but held off when she saw there were also civilians inside. Maybe 5 of them? If so, they may be the ones who wound up dead, somehow. The video host praises the ladies: "Eventually, you saved many lives in Holit." https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1728829568918945989

Sufa battle and Sufa massacre: 3 killed on duty, 5 civilians killed, 0 kidnapped. "Elia Lilintal, Sufa's head of Domestic Security, quickly detected the intruders. From his bathroom window, he eliminated several terrorists and rallied his six-member security squad. They successfully defended the kibbutz, protecting about 200 of its residents. Tragically, the onslaught claimed three of their own. Six hours later, as reinforcements reached the kibbutz, ten terrorists were captured and twenty were neutralized." This is where "an ISIS flag was discovered among the terrorists' remains." Gung-ho female tank commanders engaged in this battle (see Holit above). 

Kissufim: 30 killed, 4 kidnapped - "at least 15 civilians and six Thai workers" were killed, along with 1 security guard (?) and 8 soldiers in the 51st Golani Battalion in "an hours-long battle. Following the heroic battle, by late afternoon, they were assisting trapped residents to safety. The confrontation claimed the lives of eight soldiers. - also labeled: "Kissufim Battle" "Roughly 50 Hamas terrorists stormed a post where soldiers from Golani Brigade's 51st Battalion and some of their families, visiting for Simchat Torah, were located. ... Meanwhile, Hamas terrorists managed to infiltrate Kibbutz Kissufim, slaughtering residents. A special unit helped secure the area; it took nearly 50 hours to gain complete control." No hostage situation is mentioned, but something drew it out for over 2 days, and quite a few locals wound up dead, perhaps along with all the Hamas guys they had been packed around.

Ofakim: 52 murdered (~60 red dots), 8 on duty, 23 named civilians - 14+ injured, 0 kidnapped, some rescued "Prolonged fighting ensued between the terrorists and a local security group made up of civilians, police and IDF soldiers. . While the locals were able to eliminate most major threats by 10 a.m., the terrorists murdered over a dozen people. During the attack, Hamas took hostages in a private home, who were later rescued in a police operation." (In Ofakim, one woman's graceful bravery offers precious solace to a grieving nation | The Times of Israel) Any other hostage situations go unmentioned, but some 50-60+ civilians wound up dead.

Limited Abduction Zone mapped: Consider if the plan was to abduct and not murder people, and it went smoothly in some villages, you'd see a few red dots for the security personnel there but no more, and quite a few black dots. That might apply in some places, but what stands out is how black dots fail to appear outside certain zones hugging the Gaza border, marked out here in blue ... 

At the north end, NetivHaAsara and Zikim beach were perhaps both perhaps isolated after strikes on the Erez crossing, and wound up all killing, no abductions. To the east, Ofakim as noted, Netivot and Yakhini, and at least the police station in Sderot all wound up bloody failures, if kidnapping was the plan. The police station apparently was a "Hannibal" situation, and these other village massacres might have been the same.  

By this, Nir Oz had the best survival rate. The peace activist Yocheved Lifshitz was abducted there, along with her activist husband. Maybe it was with her help that the kidnapping process went extra-smooth so many had left before "help arrived" and finished off the stragglers. It did reportedly take until mid-afternoon for the army to arrive. Maybe in other places, the urge to resist and hide helped drag the process out so no one got out alive. Hmm. 

We can't prove the full truth, and in its violent incursion Hamas is sure to have killed a number of civilians past the soldiers and security guards they would need to kill. Some of those may have resisted with guns, while others just by refused to be quickly abducted. But from the available evidence, a sizeable portion and perhaps the vast majority of them might have been "Hannibalized" by the IDF rather than slaughtered by Hamas. 

Note: It's not clear if any Hannibal-type endings were improvised or on orders. But the hostage situations that dragged on for about 2 days and then ended suddenly on Monday suggest a centralized decision to wrap this up, get a final and large death toll rife with "Hamas torture," and commence using that to justify flattening north Gaza. 

Finally, we have the 200 Hamas fighters initially counted as murdered Israeli civilians (see part 1). They were found mangled and charred in close proximity to charred and mangled Israelis they had taken hostage. Some of these 200 fighters may have been toasted in individual combat or in their own vehicles, etc. Others would be driving hostages who would end up the same, or holding them inside buildings the IDF blasted. 20% of them should be the 40 or so killed in gun battles or by tank fire at the Dagan house, along with 13 hostages. They all wound up the same way, at the same place ... logically, for the same reason. 

But the civilians, we're told, were hacked into tiny pieces and torched, and their houses perhaps blasted with RPGs, all before the army ever showed up to ... kill a bunch of terrorists without having to blast or burn anything? And then they forgot about it? Didn't they even have some idea how many they had killed, to subtract from the death toll? Of course they did. But the supposed lapse allowed Israel to claim the highest possible death toll early on, when it mattered most in forming opinions. Later, they revise it, brag about their transparency, and studiously ignore the lesson - the IDF probably mangled and charred ALL those people. 

On the map above, one might notice the big red blob of deaths at the Re'im/Nova rave/electronic music festival - and the roads leading from it - some 364 deaths and just a few successful kidnappings in this open, sprawling killing field. What happened there? That's the topic of part 3.

Next: part 3: Gunning Down Partygoers?

Which Israelis are "Making Up Stories?"

October 7 Massacre in Israel, part 1: Which Israelis are "Making Up Stories?"

November 24, 2023

1A) Introduction

This site has never promised to cover all "massacre marketing," and it hasn't done anything for some months. I was slow to decide on even this - massacre marketing by the State of Israel over the events of October 7. "Israel's 9/11" was used to justify its assault on and invasion of Gaza, which is definitely genocidal by at least some definitions (with some details unclear to me). Their attacks have killed an estimated 15-20,000 people so far, including Hamas fighters but mostly civilian and nearly half of them children. (EuroMed - "Euro-Med Monitor estimated that at least 15,271 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed, including 3,561 women and 6,403 children"). Some half of North Gaza's housing has been destroyed, and around one million people are temporarily displaced, with Israel perhaps hoping to make that permanent. They seem to be dismantling and depopulating north Gaza, maybe in hopes of settling it as Israeli. 

It could take a while to finish the job, depending what the job winds up being, and the Israeli people might need a lot of hate to see it through. October 7 and/or the propaganda surrounding it provided for that. 

Partly from ignorance, I had no horse in this race to start. I'm certainly no fan of Israel under Netanyahu/Likud, but I also distrust Hamas. I imagine Israel is right to say they hide themselves among the people after their provocations, complicating military response and/or endangering civilians. But I couldn't say how widely they do this, and it seems Israel exaggerates this limited truth to pretend Hamas is in every building, freeing them to flatten the place.  

So to start, I was half-inclined to believe that Hamas would provoke Israel with a gruesome slaughter as alleged. That still seems possible, to at least some extent. However, upon examining the claims and evidence in middling detail, I suspect most or all of the extreme allegations were fabricated, to help Israel justify its appalling plans. 

Hamas fighters (terrorists) can be seen on videos, including their own body cameras, killing some civilians, reportedly beheading soldiers, and desecrating their bodies. As far as I've seen, they display a mix of hate and restraint that's bound to vary, Here (IDF on X): on body camera footage they threaten to kill an Israeli Arab "collaborator," but the worst the video captures is one fighter kicking the man in the face as another calms him down and has him handcuffed. Here: on security camera footage, it seems 2 young women trying to flee are shot dead by a gunman, one after she drops as if begging for mercy. 

Consider that Israel claims it killed about 1,000 of the attackers, maybe all of them equipped with cameras. But I haven't seen even a claim that any of the gravest crimes - like rape, or beheading babies - has ever occurred before any camera. That's likely because these things never happened. All after-the-fact evidence that's presented fails (see part 4), and so it says the same thing: these stories were probably just made up to sow more hate. 

It's also clear now that the scale of Hamas' killing is distorted. At least some and perhaps the vast majority of civilians killed that day (and in standoffs sometimes running 2 days after) were caused by the Israeli military itself - and not just by accident. This emerging picture is not as clear as some think, and the reality is likely more mixed than "Hamas massacre" or "IDF false-flag." I suspect it's more of the latter, but what are suspicions really worth? 

In the next 3 posts (still in progress), I'll consider the evidence presented and what it actually shows so the reader can form their own improved view. I've gathered some reports and debunks published by others, along with some critical review of the same, and some original observations. In one case, I found strong clues suggesting a young woman was killed by Israeli helicopter fire, and also suggesting some twisted manipulation of the victim's corpse to show how she was "raped" and "burned alive" by Hamas. I should probably lead with that strong medicine, but maybe just the mention here lets me start with this introduction and buys me time to finish the ordered approach I set out on, where that case comes up in part 3. 

1B) 10/7 Death Toll

Concerns about Gaza civilian deaths under Israel's bombs are often met with the note that Palestinians, children included, basically deserve it for tending to support Hamas, voting for them years back, or even celebrating the 10/7 attacks (which they saw differently). Or some of them (the children) might be kind of innocent and their deaths are Hamas' fault alone for starting the war; the IDF is dropping the bombs killing them, but they need to do this, either to hit Hamas targets or just for revenge, and should never let up until Hamas is destroyed, however many Palestinians die or get chased away in the process (and to some, it's "the more the better."). Humanitarian concerns are for humans, and ever since some of them behaved inhumanly on 10/7, Palestinians cannot be considered human. This is a serious and driving trope is Israel right now. It's pretty scary. Netanyahu has invoked Amalek.

But after all, Hamas did start it by breaking a ceasefire with their provocative kidnappings and especially with their grisly massacres on the 7th, where as some say they murdered over 1,400 innocent civilians. 

First, it seems people on both sides are confused about the death toll. Early counts grew with searches and resolving hostage standoffs to finally claim "At least 1,400 people were killed, many of them civilians, including children." (HRW) About 350 military, police and intelligence deaths were acknowledged, but it was claimed over 1,000 civilians were massacred, all by Hamas. Then it was revised down to "about 1,200" total by Nov. 10 (Israel revises Hamas attack death toll to 'around 1,200' | Reuters). As far as I can tell, this is close to a final number and it's probably a reliable count. The best source I have is:  https://oct7map.com/ - an interactive site based around a map of the attack sites all around Gaza's periphery. This might be dated, but it says "The attacks claimed the lives of more than 1,194 individuals, of which 843 of the identified bodies are civilians." Some were still buried in rubble or missing, but this may be close to a final number. That leaves 351 military. Earlier reports had at least 340 active soldiers and intelligence officers killed. That squares pretty well.

As for that revision: Israeli ambassador Mark Regev recently explained to Mehdi Hassan - as an example of how transparent his government is being - how some 200 of those dead were actually Hamas fighters so badly burned and disfigured, and in such proximity to badly burned and disfigured Israelis, that "we thought they were ours." Quds News Network on X: "Israel admits some 200 of the bodies they said were Israelis killed on October 7 turned out to be Hamas fighters. https://t.co/5mWfRZe4MF" / X (twitter.com) We'll come back to this. 

At least 843 killed civilians, broken down for reference: 364+ were killed at the Nova rave (updated count), ~55 were killed in and around the city of Sderot, ~424 were killed in the various Kibbutz attacks and scattered on the roads in between them. 100-130+ of those were at Be'eri, at least some of them "undoubtedly" killed by the IDF (see part 2 if you don't yet know about this, or the Gray Zone piece linked below), and ~300 died in the other kibbutz attacks combined.

There's another list at Ha'aretz of Israelis or foreign civilians and Israeli military, killed anywhere that day or since then - "Over 1,300 Israelis, civilians and soldiers were killed ... in the atrocities of October 7 and the subsequent Israel-Hamas war." It's not complete, even for those confirmed/reported: 1,152 names when I checked, about 1/3 of them military, and some postdating 10/7. I estimate perhaps 200 victims of the day aren't included, for whatever reason. 

I've seen this list used, several times now, to refute "40 beheaded babies" by showing there was just one (specified) baby listed, assuming that's all that was killed. That was true when I first checked (10 month old girl, killed in Be'eri), then it was revised next day to remove that entry and list no (specified) babies at all. So the list is not complete and, perhaps for privacy reasons, is specifically lacking in infants who were killed. I suspect a few were killed (5-10?), along with some toddlers ("babies" to some), maybe along with some older kids making 40 total? But they died in the disputed circumstances we'll be considering. 

But it was the manner of killing, as reported, that unsettled so many, and opened some minds to consider genocide in Gaza a fit response. It turns out no one but British tabloids and the like ever said 40 babies were beheaded, in one village or in total (Propaganda and co on X ). But killing children, some of them by beheading, killing adults in several ways, committing insanely brutal rape that breaks bones, raping children, torture, dismemberment and mutilation, fetus removal and execution, burning people alive ... these claims stand, supported by the Israeli government and accepted by its supporters worldwide.

But did Hamas really do all of that? Did they even do any of it? There is evidence to show something horrible clearly happened to a lot of people, so what else could it be? 

1C) Which Israelis are "Making up Stories"?

Tireless pro-Palestine activist Roger Waters - Pink Floyd himself if anyone is (and no one is) - gave an interview with Glen Greenwald for his November 1 episode of System Update. They discussed Waters' alleged antisemitism in light of the recent events in Israel and Gaza. His denial was sort of rambling and probably not convincing to the critics, but FWIW I believe him. To the same effect, he suggested the 10/7 attacks were perhaps allowed for some reason (but he was only "a little bit down that rabbit hole") and the Hamas massacre story "was thrown all out of proportion by Israelis making up stories about beheading babies."  Interview With Roger Waters: Musical Genius, Political Activist, Accused Anti-Semite | SYSTEM UPDATE #174 (rumble.com)

Israeli I24 News ran a critical review by Philip Podolsky November 07 that explained how Waters is "notorious for his anti-Israel vitriol" and stands accused of "antisemitic abuse." This is meant to shed light on why Waters now accuses 'Israelis' of  'making Up Stories' About October 7. (Podolsky seems to forget how he has even dressed as a Nazi-ish guy on stage, and wrote songs about killing "queers," "coons," joint-smokers, people with "spots" ... and of course Jews. And he had a pig with Shell oil logo on it, etc.) 

He's, like, a modern-day holocaust denier. Podolsky grants Waters saying "If war crimes were committed, I condemn them," but notes how he followed this by "casting further doubt on whether those took place." Though his reading adds or subtracts little from the evidence in question, Waters' doubts are valid, and his citations are good. 

"There may have been individual things," he said, referring to a report in Grayzone, which denied much of the evidence Israel has produced from the scenes of the massacre. Grayzone is a widely discredited site known for airing propaganda for the Russian and Syrian regimes, including the denial of Damascus's chemical weapons attacks on civilian population." 

The Gray Zone has refuted Syrian chemical attack claims partly based on amazing analysis I was involved with, pairing ballistic readings with video geolocation to essentially prove, in 2021, Western-backed (and Israeli-backed) Islamic militants launched whatever chemical attack there was on August 21, 2013. Syrian insurgents guilty of ‘red line’ 2013 sarin chemical attack, study finds - The Grayzone One way or another, they - and not Syria's government - caused the several hundred to 1,000+ civilians deaths, including hundreds of children, that occurred just then. Israel has never cared much about the truth of that incident. Invested as they are in toppling the "Assad regime," they'll accept or help fabricate any accusation against them and use it as a pretext to bomb some airport there, at the same time absolving and encouraging genocidal terrorist massacres. 

For some reason, I24 did not link its readers to the Gray Zone piece or name the author, Max Blumenthal - "my good friend," as Waters calls him - who can't as easily be called antisemitic. But then Waters wasn't very specific, so I'm not even sure, but ... I think this is it, questioning Israel's evidence - great piece: October 7 testimonies reveal Israel’s military ‘shelling’ Israeli citizens with tanks, missiles - The Grayzone, posted October 27. And note others had already made a similar case - e.g. MondoWeiss.net on Oct. 22.

Podolsky also fails to relate its actual core argument; Israelis were killed in their homes, but at least partly by their own military, in a cynically disproportionate response. Anyone who reads the article can see it's based mostly on reports from Israeli media citing survivors and military personnel involved in the events. Therefore, Podolsky's and I24's implication is that these Israelis are making up stories. The military command is telling it right, and anyone who says otherwise is either engaged in antisemitic smears or - if they're Israeli Jews themselves, well ... one way or another, they can't be trusted. 

Here are the two Israeli stories, broadly speaking, one of which was "made up." 

The story from Israeli civilian captives: noting that others tell different stories (see below), that either story could be untrue, told under terrorist duress or to bolster Israel's case, and that both stories could be true to some extent ... several accounts (many but not all included in the article in question) converge on a basic picture: the Hamas men were not brutal but polite for kidnappers, and seemed intent on taking captives peacefully for rational gain - they did not seem bent on murder, rape, torture or mutilation. Most or all civilian deaths were - from what they saw - caused by powerful Israeli assaults that killed captors and captives alike. I won't relate any of these accounts right here, but by topic over the next 3 posts. 

This might sound like an insane development, but consider this is Israel and, as Blumenthal noted: 

"If Israel’s military had intentionally targeted areas where it knew the captives were held, its actions would have been consistent with Israel’s Hannibal Directive. The military procedure was established in 1986 following the Jibril Agreement, a deal in which Israel traded 1150 Palestinian prisoners for three Israeli soldiers. Following heavy political backlash, the Israeli military drafted a secret field order to prevent future kidnappings. The proposed operation drew its name from the Carthaginian general who chose to poison himself rather than be held captive by the enemy."

In the few cases this directive was followed, the suicide was "assisted". One possible example occurred that day, at the overrun Erez crossing, where the commander called in a strike to destroy the still-occupied base, to kill the terrorists and/or prevent the capture of any troops (MondoWeiss). 

Another example from the same day was at the police station in Sderot, a city militants couldn't take like the villages, with some 50-60 scattered, perhaps targeted killings, but including several seniors killed at a bus stop. The only hostage situation that formed here was at the police station. The Cradle reports: "Hamas fighters had taken over the local police station, and were holding Israeli police captive inside. Both the Hamas fighters and Israeli police were killed when the Israeli army fired tank shells at the police station, killing everyone. Israeli forces then bulldozed the station." Mapping the Massacres (oct7map.com) says, in contrast, the terrorists killed "approximately 30 individuals" at the station before the IDF arrived and "regained control of the situation, neutralizing some 35 terrorists in the process," and apparently killing no one else. Just 8 red dots are shown, and 8 names of those "killed on duty" are given. Does the "approximately 30" deaths include "some 35 terrorists?" Once IDF was there, "the Southern District commander ordered the event to be ended at all costs - even if it meant destroying the station. Just after 22:00, a bulldozer began to demolish the station. This triggered heavy exchanges of fire, and the station began to burn. After a prolonged battle, the police announced that control of the station had been regained."  No survivors are mentioned.

As I gather, the Hannibal option is usually meant for military personnel facing abduction, not police, or civilians. But extending it to civilians would have the same basic logic - prevent terrorists from getting any advantage from kidnapping Israeli citizens. Instead of take-no-prisoners, it's an allow-no-prisoners policy. You don't have to bother with exchanging anything for their freedom if they're simply dead from the start. And anyway, 10/7 was a case where both civilians and military were abducted - any effort to differentiate who to kill might fail, and widely. 

IDF Reserve pilot Col. Nof Erez doesn't seem to have direct, inside knowledge of the day's events, but when interviewed by Ha'aretz, he said "the Hannibal directive was probably deployed" for this hostage situation, but it was not the isolated kidnapping they had trained for; "What we saw here was a MASS HANNIBAL. There were many openings in the fence, thousands of people in many different vehicles, both with hostages and without hostages. It was an impossible mission to identify and to do what [the pilots] did." In such a chaotic situation, they would almost surely kill some hostages and perhaps even civilians fleeing from the terrorists. https://twitter.com/WarWatchs/status/1726671271017013494

The IDF would deny the killings in such a case, as much as possible blaming the enemy, and so the killings would add propaganda value - there's an actual motive to kill civilians "in the crossfire" or "Hannibalize" them, even in large numbers. They could re-brand every arbitrary insult of the blasts as some bizarre Hamas torture, as it seems they have done. People get much angrier over a massive and grisly terrorist massacre of children than over some calculated abductions.

The story from the Israeli military: Hamas militants abducted some locals but opted to brutally massacre most of those they ran across, committing every act of barbarism short of perhaps cannibalism. They say this all happened before the IDF arrived to eliminate the terrorists with heavy weaponry. The terrorists might have tried using the captives as human shields hoping to prevent attack, but the IDF did attack - they'd have us believe - without killing any of the captives. All harm that was caused to them can be assumed from Hamas, who had already hacked and burned everyone available in the crudest and cruelest way possible, in "ISIS fashion," leaving them no human shields to even try working with. That, of course, is because Palestinians are inhuman beasts full of hate and lacking in foresight, and Israel would be right to be inhuman back, to kill thousands of kids in Gaza as they flatten the place and re-populate it with God's chosen people. (The last part is just sort of implied.)

The same basic story also comes from some survivor/witnesses, like Dani Fux (second-hand source: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/massacre-on-kibbutz-beeri/), with a sort of vague overview of events as witnessed from a hiding spot in the attic, emphasizing a curiously explicit acceptance of a "Hannibal" ending consistent with the story he and the IDF deny: 

"The terrorists went from door to door, abducted people or killed them. Sometimes they only killed. Sometimes they took the kids and killed the parents, sometimes the other way around.” ... Dani had a handgun and he and his parents agreed that they would use it if they were detected by the terrorists. They would die in all likelihood under that scenario, the family agreed, but “we would not be taken prisoner.”

So even if the army did wind up killing some people, maybe it was for the best. Nothing is worse than being taken alive by those Muslims, who might skin you alive or rape you to death, or just create a disadvantage for Israel ... as it continues trying to keep its people safe from genocide ... here, perhaps, by killing its people ... to justify some revenge genocide ... that could spark some revenge genocide later ... maybe requiring some "final solution" because, as they say, "never again."

1D) Discrediting the Messenger, Killing the Message

Philip Podolsky at I24 knows the playbook - attack the messenger instead of the message. You accept the military story and any similar reports, and ignore the discrepant stories from Israeli survivors ... until Pink Floyd and the Crazy Zone cite them. Then you blame them and "antisemitism" for inventing what could be the ugly, uncomfortable truth. It's the truth that the Netanyahu regime fears, and those who know it best ... some would be involved in the crime and would mainly keep quiet as ordered. Some saw part of the story and have told it, while others are blockaded inside Gaza, and the best witnesses are of course dead. There are still accounts to be heard, but we might not get to hear them for some time.

Israel first rejected an offer from Hamas to free two older women abducted on the 7th, in exchange for nothing, before agreeing and then regretting it. Yocheved Lifshitz, an 85-year-old Israeli peace activist, and her 79-year-old friend, Nurit Cooper were filmed having tea with their captors and, upon release to the people with the Red Cross, Lifshitz shook hands and wished peace on one of them as they parted. 

As Blumenthal adds in relating this: "During a press conference that day, she recounted the humane treatment she received from her captors." She never mentioned witnessing any kind of massacre by either side. But then she and some 70-80 others were presumably whisked away from kibbutz Nir Oz before a battle ensued there. In the end, the remaining terrorists were killed, and some 27+ remaining civilians also wound up dead. She probably saw none of that. 

It should be no surprise that, as Blumenthal notes, "The spectacle of Lifshitz’s release was treated as a propaganda disaster by the Israeli government’s spinmeisters, with officials grumbling that allowing her to speak publicly was a grave “mistake.” They probably prefer that she had been killed back at Nir Oz. Allowing Lifshitz, Yasmin Porat, Tuval Escapa, and the others to speak publicly is all a “mistake.” The truth they help reveal complicates the genocidal war effort. In the current climate, we can expect pressure to come down on publishers to prevent more stories from emerging.

Like others have, Blumenthal contrasts this regret with the Times of Israel report that “The army is concerned that further hostage releases by Hamas could lead the political leadership to delay a ground incursion or even halt it midway.”" And he compares it also with the Hamas claim - unverified as far as I know - that Israel had killed “almost 50” of the 240 hostages with its missile strikes, even before October was out. It seems like they'd still rather kill those people while killing more Gazans than to have them freed, in exchange for fuel, for a ceasefire, for any Palestinian prisoners, any more PR points for the enemy, or even just to get its own people back.  

This would be consistent with a policy implied above - it was better to have those civilians killed - so long as that can be blamed on Hamas - than to be captured and used to Hamas' benefit. 

Late add, perhaps to move: "An anonymous group of Israelis has written an open letter calling for an independent investigation. But Israel seems unlikely to allow this, and appears to be covering up the evidence, burying some bodies before they have been identified." (https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/an-open-letter-to-israelis-from-israelis-we-deserve-the-truth-about-october-7/ - via The evidence Israel killed its own citizens on 7 October | The Electronic Intifada)

Next: Part 2: Who was Behind the Kibbutz Massacres?